Lorenzo Snow Manual Chapter 24, Reflections on the Mission of Jesus Christ

Well, here we are at the last chapter, this has been very interesting going right through this manual and has raised some great issues and discussions. Next year we will not be going right through the Joseph Fielding Smith manual, but rather just going through a few that stand out.

This last chapter brings nothing massively new to comment on, there is some nice commentary on a visit to the Holy Lands. In fact much of this chapter would not cause problems to many Christians reading it unless you have some background information.  2 statements particularly got my interest.

Statement 1

Jesus Christ the Son of God was once placed in a condition that it required the highest effort in order to accomplish what was necessary for the salvation of millions of the children of God. It re- quired the highest effort and determination that had to be exercised before the Son of God could pass through the ordeal, the sacrifice that was necessary.7 

I wonder how often it is taught in the Mormon Church today that all of this was actually done to achieve exaltation for Christ as well, as with many teachings of the Mormon Church that massively cause problems to Christians we tend not to see much emphasis on this today.

Traditional Mormon teaching is that if you go far back enough we all started in the same way as eternal “intelligence’s” waiting to progress, if you go far back enough Christ and Heavenly Father were right there with us, however not all LDS people believe this today.

However as this line of thinking carries on the necessity to gain a spiritual body to our heavenly parents, this is called the first estate or the pre-mortal life. Then there is the necessity to come to earth and gain a physical body for our mortal probation or second estate. Traditional Mormonism teaches that heavenly Father had His second estate on another world, however Christs second estate was carried out in His incarnation.

10th President Joseph Fielding Smith said:

 “CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Sav- ior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33).

Christ had to come to earth and live a life worthy of His own exaltation. Needless to say with all that He did He did this with flying colors as it were, however when you really think about it, where is the sacrifice in this?

I believe as Philippians 2:5-8 says that Jesus was equal with the Father and stepped down. After this He then rose again coming back to the same position He was in before He came to earth thus sacrificing His glorious position with the Father to die for us then returning to where He was, much more glorious in the eyes of man, but equally powerful and glorious as God as He was before. This is an area well worth raising when you speak with Mormons.

Statement 2

. . . Though he has sacrificed himself and laid the plan for the redemption of the people, yet unless the people labor to obtain that union between him and them, their salvation never will be accomplished.

Its the classic works verses grace argument but here it is, people must labour to obtain that union. I am often told by LDS people that there is no checklist for this however in the Exaltation section of the LDS Gospel Principles manual  (2009) we see this:

Requirements for Exaltation

The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
4. We must receive the temple endowment.
5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:

1. Love God and our neighbors.
2. Keep the commandments.
3. Repent of our wrongdoings.
4.  Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.    
5.  Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
6.  Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
7.  Have family and individual prayers every day.
8.  Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
9.  Study the scriptures.
10.  Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Apologies for the long copy and paste there, however things like this are the reason why ministries like mine exist, Jesus said come to Me my burden is light. We see in Luke 7:50 a woman make a demonstration of her faith and Jesus simply says “Your faith has saved you go in peace” Luke 7:50. We of course see in so many places in the New Testament that salvation is not our work, Romans 4:5 says

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Righteousness does not come from following the above list, union with Christ does not come from doing the LDS Church tells you, rather it comes from Jesus, trust in Jesus come to Jesus and He is enough for you, this is why my site exists, and this small part of this chapter reminds me why this is so vital.

Romans 10:3 seems very fitting here, imagine this was talking about LDS people.

For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

One of the arguments LDS people make which almost seems fair is. Well I may disagree with you on the works issue, but I still trust Jesus anyway, so Ill be ok.

However the problem is that in following these rules and seeking to make union with Christ by your works rather than just trusting in His, means you are trusting in a righteousness that does not exist, in seeking to establish your righteousness you have missed Christs righteousness and therefore remain outside of the fold of Christianity.

A probably less than perfect analogy is imagine if I knew I was going to my families for Christmas dinner, they promised me a great meal but not trusting that they would give me enough food I eat a meal first. I go there and end up not eating much of what was a perfectly sufficient meal. Therefore saying that their food was not enough for me I do not partake in what they offered.

Mormons in saying that you need to add your works to the works of Christ for your salvation whether you intend to or not, you are saying that what He did is not enough for you, therefore you have missed the righteousness that is in Christ.

I finish this with echoing Philippians 3:9 for myself and praying that those reading would take this on for themselves.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Thanks all for going through this book with us, have a great Christmas and we look forward to seeing you back here next year, that’s all from us in 2013.

Lorenzo Snow Manual, Chapter 19 – Missionary Work – ‘To Reach Every Human Heart’, by Gary Carter

Nearly every religion on the earth seeks to add numbers to its flocks. Of the major religions that can be considered ‘global’, only Hinduism does not have proselytizing at its core. It is therefore no surprise that missionary activities are considered of great importance to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as seen here in chapter 19 of the Teachings of Lorenzo Snow. Every religion that has its roots in Christianity, such as Christadelphians and Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormonism take inspiration from the Great Commission of Matthew 28-18:20 where Jesus command his followers to take his message to the ends of the earth. Christianity would be hard pressed to argue against the zeal and biblical principles that underpin the evangelism of these ‘sects’ given that these principles are the same for Christianity and that Christian evangelism should be undertaken with great zeal, even if it is done in a different manner. When investigating this chapter and Snow’s theology of mission, this use of the Great Commission as a fundamental principle presents some different challenges.

Over the review of this book, we have seen how Snow wraps the theology of Mormonism in the theology of Christianity, making it very difficult to distinguish between the two, with exceptions being seen in declarations such as ‘as man now is, God was once: as God now is, man may be’. This chapter is a prime example of this recurring problem. Snow’s theology seems so ‘orthodox’ that it is very difficult to examine the differences between the two. The self-sacrifice of mission is something that would not be denied by Mormonism or Christianity. Its importance wouldn’t be denied and whilst the Mormon mission system is rather formal, missionary networks are positive things. We shall be investigating the theme of mission in Mormonism with a focus on looking at the Mormon scriptures. We shall also investigate some of the missionary motivations within Snow’s thoughts on mission and what we can learn in terms of differences and what to avoid.

 

When discussing this topic, it is important to begin with one of the most important verses of Scripture:

Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’ (Matthew 28:18-20)

These verses are very helpful in understanding the Christian scriptural foundations for evangelism and mission. These verses are also very helpful in understanding the Mormon approach to evangelism and mission. During our introduction, it was acknowledged that on the surface, there does seem to very little difference between the two positions. I believe that one of the main differences is rooted in what can be termed as heart attitude. We can find a telling paragraph on page 227 of Snow’s work. In this paragraph, Snow advocates that in terms of mission by Mormons, Mormons should ‘go and make friends among the individuals by whom you are surrounded’. This is not something that Christianity would disagree with. One should be missional in the community you live in.

The interesting section comes straight after when Snow argues that one could also select a friend and test him out for mission. There is nothing wrong with caring for a friend and wanting them to come to salvation, especially if one is incredibly close to that friend. This passage could be read though as something that the person being evangelized to could consider sinister. If somebody is only friend with you so that you can be evangelized to, does that mean that they like you or like that you can be evangelized to. Questions like that prove to be very damaging to evangelism and can leave the impression that Mormons may not have genuine intentions. Whilst Snow’s arguments that one should accept when evangelism isn’t going anywhere and stop pestering those who are not interesting are valid and something Christians would agree with, that does not necessarily mean that the friendship ends, something that does happen all too often with interactions with full time Mormon missionaries (this comment is one based on the experience of myself and friends in a particular part of the United Kingdom.

I accept that this isn’t always the case in with Mormons serving on missions). It is also important to recognize that this is something that occurs within every religion’s evangelism including within Christianity’s. The difference seems to be that Snow has institutionalized the practice that can be seen as sinister. If that is the heart attitude of Mormon evangelism, a heart attitude that can seem ‘fake’, then we must wonder if Mormon evangelism is about people or about numbers of converts. I wish to state again that this phenomenon is not unique to Mormonism. To argue such would be factually wrong. The point that is being made is that Snow seems to support the institutionalization of such a practice.

 

Another point of great interest is the following quote from Doctrines and Covenants:

Yea, a supper of the house of the Lord, well prepared, unto which all nations shall be invited. First, the rich and the learned, the wise and the noble; And after that cometh the day of my power; then shall the poor, the lame, and the blind, and the deaf, come in unto the marriage of the Lamb, and partake of the supper of the Lord, prepared for the great day to come. Behold, I, the Lord, have spoken it. (D&C 58:9-12)

The reason why these verses are interesting is linked to the following verse from 1 Corinthians:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.’

 

Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling-block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things – and the things that are not – to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God – that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: ‘Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.’ (1 Corinthians 1:18-31)

There is a direct contrast between the 1 Corinthians verses and the Doctrine and Covenants verses. Paul’s emphasis is on the message of the Gospel being succor to the poor and for those who were not of ‘noble birth’. It is foolishness to the wise. Paul quotes the Old Testament in saying that God will ‘destroy the wisdom of the wise’. This is almost in direct contrast to Smith who states that the Lord will call ‘all nations’ to His table starting with ‘the rich and learned, the wise and the noble’. Both statements are unequivocal in their tone and meaning.

There seems to be no possibility that these two statements can be held together under one overall idea. There is no implication in what Smith’s statement that there is a hidden meaning where ‘rich’ actually means ‘poor’ and ‘learned’ means ‘foolishness’ to the world’s eyes. In fact, when we look at the very next verse from D&C 58, we can see that it is the ‘rich and learned’ who will lead the ‘poor, the lame and the blind and the deaf’ into the kingdom of God. This difference of thought between Smith and Paul is crucial in understanding the difference in the theology of evangelism between Mormonism and Christianity. The theology of evangelism from the New Testament, despite some of the interpretations that have been used in Christian theology in the past two millennia, is that Christ has come for the ‘poor and foolish’ and that Christ uses them to shame the rich, the learned and the powerful for their reliance on themselves. In essence, 1 Corinthians shows us a gospel that wants to be evangelized to the poor and has a distinctive focus towards them. The gospel that Smith in D&C 58 presents shows the opposite focus for evangelism.

So what can we conclude? We can conclude that this area is rather grey and murky when trying to consider the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. One cannot criticize the vigour and zeal of Mormon missionaries as Christians are called to serve evangelistically. Often, despite our deep theological differences with Mormonism and the occasional feeling of contempt for them that is felt in Christian circles, Christians should be much more committed to evangelism like the Mormons. Whilst it does feel odd to see some of the evangelism tactics being institutionalized by Snow in this chapter, we must recognize that Christians can do the same thing. The main difference seems to be in the theology of Smith and Paul. They both have very different ‘target demographics’ which are dependent on their interpretation of the Gospel. Paul and the New Testament seem completely at odds with Smith and Doctrine and Covenants. Smith seems to have moved away from the idea of 1 Corinthians of ‘rich and poor’ and ‘wise and foolish’ when it comes to the Gospel. This is another crucial difference between Mormonism and Christianity that we have been able to discern whilst investigating the work of Lorenzo Snow.

Teachings of the President Lorenzo Snow. Chapter 11 Review by Gary Carter

Chapter 11, ‘I Seek Not Mine Own Will but the Will of the Father’, may seem a little bit ‘jarring’ in its location within the book coming as it is does after the important chapter of coming to the temples. The issues that are raised in the chapter are important to discuss however. It is one of those chapters that, unlike the previous chapter, involve detailed analysis of Lorenzo Snow’s theology to discern the LDS theology from the Christian theology. In our journey examining Snow’s thoughts on Jesus’ famous statement that is used as the title for his chapter, we shall focus on two distinctive Mormon ideas in the text. Firstly, we shall investigate the idea that it is possible to take a path where there will be no failure and secondly we shall investigate the difference between successful and faithful with God.

The first area we shall look at focuses on the very first section of Snow’s teaching in this chapter. The particular quotation that is important is ‘there is a course for every person to pursue in which there will be no failure’. This quotation needs to be understood in light of the reference from Doctrine and Covenants that comes shortly after the quotation:

‘If your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you, and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things. Therefore sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God (D&C 88:67-68).

We must begin with the areas where Mormonism and Christianity agree. It would be unwise and improper to suggest that saying that ‘seeming failures’ cannot be successes in actuality in God. When we consider Peter, we can see that his massive failures in abandoning Jesus as well as his failure to understand Jesus’ messages were transformed by God into great wisdom and leadership for His purposes. Our greatest failures can be turned into great Godly successes. Where Snow begins to go into areas where Christianity must disagree is the reasoning behind why the LDS church of the 1890’s has not fallen into failure. Snow argues the church has avoided failure as they have ‘fixed upon the true principles of life, and have conformed to their duty’. The church has the Spirit ‘and have followed it. Hence there has been no failure’. This along with the quotation we have seen before, signals a progression from failure being redeemed by God to humanity being able to avoid failure by works, in affect humanity being free from sin through works and redeeming itself.

Now am I over exaggerating here? Am I reading far too much into what Snow is saying? I do not believe that I am. When Snow states that the church has avoided failure has come from ‘conforming to duty’, he states that the avoidance of failure in the sight of the Lord has come from the church’s action rather than the mercy and grace of Christ. This theology has been cut from the same cloth as the theology in chapter five where men can become gods by their works. Snow does say in this section that the ‘people generally have had the Spirit of the Lord, and have followed it’. That seems biblically orthodox doesn’t it? Well, it would again seem a bit bizarre to say that Peter hadn’t failed in his leadership of the church when he was caught in hypocrisy as he ate with Gentiles when James wasn’t around but refused in James’ presence. It would also be bizarre an absurd to say that Peter did not have the Spirit or that the Spirit abandoned him at that time. Peter’s failure in this regard came about by the sin that is in us all. Our lives are a constant wrestle with obeying the Spirit and giving into our sinful urges. There will always be sinful failure on an individual level and on the corporate level as we are all sinful until our purification in our resurrection at death. As such to argue that we can avoid failure in this life by works is not just theologically wrong, but folly.

Our next point of exploration is the difference between success and faithfulness when it comes to God. The sentence that follows the quotation from Doctrine and Covenants we have previously discussed is as follows ‘That is the key by which a person can always be successful’. The quotations that follow, Philippians 3:14 and Doctrine and Covenants 84:38, make references to prizes, which are the reward for success. I do believe however that Snow has misappropriated the quotation from Philippians. The prize he is talking about is the resurrection from the dead that comes from a life with Jesus.

When we consider Philippians 3:13, Paul exhorts us to repent and leave our sins in the past and keep going through the trials, the pain and our own sinfulness towards our true prize, relationship with Christ in eternity. This sounds more like faithfulness rather than success. So what does the LDS church define ‘success’, the word Snow uses on page 150 as? The Bible Dictionary on the LDS website does not give us a definition under the term ‘success’ but this word is used in a couple of other definitions such as Maccabees and Jonah. In these definitions, the word ‘success’ is used in its classical sense, in that the aims that one set out with were achieved and that success was accredited to the person who ‘achieved’ the success.

So is Snow talking about ‘faithfulness’ or ‘success’? The answer to this can be found on page 150 when Snow begins to articulate on the will of God worked through our lives. In this section, Snow works through the lives of Moses and Jeremiah about how the will of the Father is worked through them despite their inadequacies.

Before this discussion however, Snow quotes John 5:19 and then proceeds to argue that if anything needs to be done that requires an ‘exertion’, we need to align our will with God’s. This is, of course, is perfectly Christian. Where it gets a little odd is when Snow argues that when we do this, it will always lead to success that we will eventually see, even if it takes a while for the success to flower. The truth of the matter is that when we align our wills, we do not do so for success. We do so because our creator God asks us to serve Him. He asks us to follow His will just like Jesus so that we can faithful to him.

The element of success that Snow introduces is a clear sign of the work-based salvation that is present in Snow’s thought as seen in chapter 5. It can be argued that the ‘success’ that Snow talks about is rooted within the trek west to the Salt Lake Basin and the overcoming of challenges to get to the Basin in the first place and the challenges that were involved in establishing settlements in the Basin. With this in mind, it could be argued that Snow is using his experiences in trying to articulate his thoughts and this could be conceivable if it weren’t for the other examples of work based salvation theology that have been present in the previous chapters. Snow’s theology, as shown by this example, is part of the foundation of Mormon soteriology (doctrine of salvation) which proclaims that humanity can work their way to the celestial kingdom to exaltation and godhood. Achieving this is what is considered success.

So in conclusion, what can we say about chapter eleven? We can say that, as with previous chapters, Snow is not unfamiliar with Christian theology and makes some points which are not out of step with Christian orthodoxy. What we can also see however is that Snow is still deeply rooted in the idea that humanity can be perfect and work their way to the celestial kingdom, in essence, you can work your way to heaven, something Christianity cannot accept.

Lorenzo Snow Manual, Chapter 7. By Vicky Gilpin

Faithfulness in times of trial: from the shadows into glorious sunshine. Chapter seven in our series of posts on the book, ‘Teachings of presidents of the church: Lorenzo Snow’.

In this post I will be giving thoughts and comments on the above mentioned chapter,

Looking at the issues raised from a Christian perspective.

The chapter begins by describing the trials suffered by the early church as they made their way from Nauvoo, Illinois to their eventual home of Utah more than 300 miles west. A perilous journey which most of us even in this day and age, with our modern equipment and mod cons, I’m sure would not like to take. They did truly suffer for their beliefs, this can’t be denied.

Snow explains his perspective on trials; ‘ I dare say that in the pre-mortal spirit world, when it was proposed to us to come into this probation, and pass through the experience that we are now receiving, it was not altogether pleasant and agreeable; the prospects were not so delightful in all respects as might have been desired, Yet there is no doubt that we saw and understood clearly, that in order to accomplish our exaltation and glory, this was a necessary experience; and however disagreeable it might have appeared to us, we were willing to conform to the will of God, and consequently we are here.

In other words, in the pre-mortal life we looked and saw how bad it was going to be at times and we said we will do it anyway. That would be admirable obviously, but doesn’t the Bible say something about not boasting?
I can almost picture Lorenzo straightening his collar proudly as he speaks. The problem with this scenario is that it does lead to a boastful attitude. If as a faithful Mormon ( speaking fictitiously obviously,)  I read and believed what my president had said. Then in times of suffering, I could ( not saying that every Mormon does this, ) say to myself, ‘I’ll be ok, I will get through this, I saw this coming before I came to this world and chose to come anyway so I will endure,’ ( trusting in myself, instead of God!) Or I could have the prideful attitude of thinking, ‘wow these are some tough times I’m going through here, aren’t I great for choosing to go through them! Good for me!”  Which is of course, prideful boasting in my own achievements instead of Gods.

That reminds me of a certain passage in the Bible…

 Luke 18:9-14

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ ”But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ ”I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The fact is that although I’m sure every Mormon would plead innocence to this, the LDS Gospel, (which is very different from the Christian Gospel,) leads to many opportunities to fall into the sin of pride.
This scripture speaks against earning salvation by works, (which in itself is prideful to think we could do this.) instead of trusting in the saving grace of our saviour. The second man in this passage, knowing that no works of the flesh made him acceptable to God, did not point to his works, ( His keeping the laws and ordinances,) but he came humbly before God knowing that no matter what good he had done, he stood before God as a sinner. He says ‘have mercy on me,’ as he knows what the due punishment is for his sin. The scripture says that he went home justified before God.

Justify – Dictionary definition  

jus·ti·fy  (jst-f)

v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies

v.tr.

1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid

2. To declare free of blame; absolve.

3. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.

So in this parable, spoken by Jesus Himself, the second man went home having been ‘declared free of blame, free from the guilt and penalty of sin! Why? Because he humbly came before God and said ‘have mercy on me, a sinner.’

2 Corinthians 10:17 But , “let him who boasts, boast in the Lord,” For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

“The Lord has determined in his heart that He will try us until He knows what he can do with us. He tried His Son Jesus … Before He ( the Saviour) came upon earth, the Father has watched his course and knew He could depend  upon Him when the salvation of worlds should be at stake; and He was not disappointed.

This paragraph highlights a couple of huge differences between Mormon and Christian thought, firstly I’ll look at the statement, “until He knows what he can do with us.”

Wilford Woodruff, Fourth President of the LDSChurch said this…

“God is increasing in knowledge. If there was a point where man in his progression could not proceed any further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent and reflecting mind. God Himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end.” ( The Discourse of wilford S Woodruff,3)

BYU (BrighamYoungUniversity) LDS  FAQ page

…“God’s foreknowledge spans all of man’s experience (premortal, mortal, post-mortal, and immortal) and man’s end (his final condition as an individual) is known by God, “from the beginning.” This foreknowledge may have come as a result of God’s long observation of his children through premortal ages or eons, or it may come as a result of the celestial globe where God resides and where things past, present, and future are continually before the Lord.”…

The God that I worship, the God of Christianity, is very different from the god of Mormonism. My God is the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. There is no God apart from Him. He knows all and see’s all. He can see past, present and future. He knows all that is, and all that could be. He is not limited by the things that limit us. After all he created time and space, physics  and philosophy. Mormonism brings god down, teaching of a god that does not possess all power, knowledge and dominion. But must find that knowledge from observing things outside of Himself.

Coupled with the belief that God was once a man, potentially a sinful man, God is robbed of his glory by this religion.

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

 

1 John 3:19-20

By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

 

Isaiah 46:9

I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done.

Similarly, Jesus is brought low, the Mormon Jesus, does not compare to the Jesus of Christianity.

 …”He tried His Son Jesus … Before He (the Saviour) came upon earth, the Father has watched his course…”

God the Father, tries his son Jesus to see that he’s capable of the task ahead.

This is not the Jesus of the Bible, who “existing in the form of God, ( So he was already God )  did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped ( because he humbly laid aside his Glory temporarily ) but emptied Himself (of the Glory which was His ), taking the form of a bond servant  and being made in the likeness of Man” Philippians 2:6-7 (off topic here but notice this bit, “Likeness of Man,” if the LDS interpretation of Genesis 1:26 is correct, why is Jesus made to be in the likeness of man? Wasn’t man made in the likeness of God? This statement doesn’t make sense in the LDS theology of God having a body.)

John 1:14 (NASB)
The Word Made Flesh

¹⁴ And the Word became flesh, and ^[a]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 1:3 (NASB) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and ^[b]upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

John 17:5 (NASB)

⁵ Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

Notice in the above two verses, ‘The Son is the radiance of Gods Glory,( or KJV, ‘The brightness of His glory,’) then in John 17 Jesus asks God ‘glorify me together with yourself,’
Jesus is asking the Father to glorify him, ‘with the glory which I had with you before the world was’ This is just before the crucifixion.
Jesus who having lived out His life perfectly, sinlessly, selflessly, facing his final act of sacrifice, to pay the price for the sins of the world. Asks His Father to give Him the same amount of glory he had before he came to earth.

Surely from the Mormon perspective this doesn’t make sense. Is Jesus having done all the father asked of Him not worthy of Exaltation? Or did he possess this level of glory (of an exalted being) before coming to earth? If so how could this be? He hadn’t earned exaltation at that point? Should He be sharing the same level of Glory with the Father before He came to earth?

The second issue the two scriptures raise is that of Gods Glory. Didn’t God say that He would not give His glory to another?

 

Isaiah 42:8 (NASB)

⁸ “I am the Lord, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to ^[a]graven images.

Isaiah 48:11 (NASB)

¹¹ “For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.

God will not give his glory to another! Why then does Jesus ask Him to do this?

This contradiction is no contradiction at all when you understand God in trinity.

Genesis 1:26 is the first glimpse of the Trinity in the Bible.

Then God said let us create man in our image according to our likeness.

Who is speaking here? It says God is speaking, So God is identifying Himself as more than one person.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (NASB)

⁴ “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!

Why does God make a point of telling us he is one? One what?
One God, as in there is only one God? If that is the case then Mormonism works against this as there are many Gods, even if we are not aware of them they still exist,(in LDS Theology) and God Himself would be aware of them.

So then is he telling us that he is one, because He is one with Jesus and the Holy spirit?

Jesus Himself said it…
“I and the Father are one.”
John 10:30

I know what your thinking! (if your LDS) ‘Jesus was one with the Father in purpose’ Is that really what Jesus meant though?

The following verses say…

John 10:31-33

³¹ The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. ³² Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” ³³ The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.

The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying, by claiming to be one with the father He was claiming equality with God. Had they understood Him to mean that He was one in purpose, surely a stoning would be a bit harsh!

I’m not going to go into the issue of Trinity further here but I want to challenge you to check it out for yourself. The concept of Trinity came from what the scriptures say, it was not a product of the nicea creed as I have herd some LDS people say. All the Nicea creed did was to put down on paper a statement of the agreed upon beliefs of the church at the time. They came to this agreement through studying the scriptures.

I will stop here, there are more issues that could be discussed from this chapter but for want of time I will have to leave them. Hopefully I’ve given you enough to think about for now.

As always I will look forward to your comments!

Lorenzo Snow Manual Chapter 4 by Gary Carter

Chapter 4 – Strengthened by the Power of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is always an interesting question when we consider Mormonism and Christianity. There are many areas of disagreement such as the divinity of the Holy Spirit and the interactions in the godhead between Father, Son and Spirit but you can all rest easy, we are not going to look at these incredibly deep issues when it comes to Chapter 4 of President Snow’s teaching manual. The title ‘Strengthened by the Power of the Holy Ghost’ gives us our clue into what we shall be investigating as we will be looking into the gifts of the Holy Spirit and what the Holy Spirit does through us and in us.

The Holy Spirit, first and foremost in Snow’s theology, is the agent that resolves and strengthens faith. Snow quotes 1 Corinthians 12: 7, 9 (“The spirit is given to everyman to profit withal. To one is given faith”) to argue that once the Ghost has entered us, there is an extraordinary faith that stirs within us and strengthens us when faced with persecution. Snow then moves onto something that is important to discuss. He argues hat the gift of the Holy Ghost is something that is entirely different from any sectarian idea as it is a principle based in combined intelligence and revelation. As part of this revelatory principle,

“The gifts of the Holy Spirit were to be received by obedience to the requirements of the gospel and as proclaimed in those days and as proclaimed by the Elders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.”

This is quote is very important to consider when we consider the quotation from 1 Corinthians 12. It doesn’t say in this particular passage of scripture that these gifts come from obedience rather than they come from faith in the Spirit. We are all gifted to help each other as it says in verse 7 but in verse 6, Paul talks about that despite the different ways the Spirit manifests itself, it is the same God who does all the work in us. The gifts aren’t received by obedience but as an outpouring of grace that comes from faith in Christ. Snow and the Bible are clearly out of line here.

This then moves us onto our next point, what the gifts of the Holy Spirit actually for? The answer from this passage seems to be that the gifts are for endurance. Endurance, especially endurance to the end within the Mormon faith, is a popular theme within Mormon scriptures. Some examples from the LDS scriptures include 3 Nephi 15:9, D&C 18:22, D&C 50:5 and Articles of Faith 1:13 and that is being rather selective. A key verse however when we consider the Holy Spirit, his gifts and endurance is 1 Nephi 13:37.

And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.

The work of Zion, a work of God, needs the assistance of the Holy Spirit. Not only does the pouring out of the gifts of the Holy Spirit rely on obedience and diligence to a work, but the primary objective for the Holy Spirit’s power is to be used to help us endure to celestial glory. This theme is ever present in this chapter for Snow as seen in quotations such as ‘be marked out to them by the Holy Ghost, that course by which they could elevate themselves to knowledge and power and thus prepare themselves to receive the glory that God proposed to confer upon them’. The Holy Ghost is an absolute necessity for exaltation, celestial life and glory. The actual gifts, by which I mean tongues, prophecy etc., do seem to be rather lost in the shuffle. The gifts themselves are briefly mentioned by Snow as something that are of use for the church but their aim is still to help humanity on their way to celestial glory.

This does not seem to be the biblical motive for this gifts or what God desires for us with these gifts. When we look at Pentecost in Acts 2, we see that after the outpouring of the Spirit onto the disciples, the apostles go out and teach and evangelize, spreading the Gospel and bringing people to faith in Jesus. When Jesus himself promises the Holy Spirit in John 14-15, it is promised to guide and to teach the faithful. The Spirit is God with us to spread the good news and power of Christ. In other words, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, whilst of great benefit to those whom they course through, are within us primarily to aid us in being Christ and spreading Christ to others. They are a part of God’s mission to others. This is in direct contrast with the LDS position. Without even touching onto the always controversial subject in these discussions of the divinity of the Holy Spirit, we can see that the LDS have minimized the power of the Holy Ghost from a gift to the whole world to an aid to help us in our endurance towards salvation.

So what can we say as a summary of Chapter 4? I think we can say that Snow’s overwhelming emphasis is on endurance as the consequence of being strengthened by the Holy Spirit. This heavy emphasis seems to go against the attitude in the Bible, which is all about being strengthened to give out the Holy Spirit to others and to see God’s wonders being used through us. Snow’s emphasis is on the self in enduring to the end. That isn’t in line with what God desires for us as laid out in the New Testament in terms of why we have been given the Holy Spirit and how we should be used by Him. You could argue that perhaps that this is just some attempt at a distorted reading here of President Snow. I will leave you with the final paragraph of chapter 4 and I will let you decide.

‘We should endeavor, as far as possible, to forget all worldly matters which grieve and vex us, and fix our minds upon the Lord, having a sufficiency of His Holy Spirit that we may be enabled to receive such knowledge and suggestions as will help us in our onward path.’

Lorenzo Snow Manual Chapter 2, Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, by Gary Carter

Lorenzo Snow, as mentioned by Mike last week, is a creature of his age. He, in comparison to his contemporaries, can be considered a creature of the enlightenment. As a ‘leading star’ of his generation intellectually, it is no surprise that he rose so high in early Mormonism and its theological and intellectual development. The emphasis on works on the path to godhood, a theme that was explored by Mike in his review of chapter 1, in Snow’s thought is part of the foundations of Mormon faith. Snow’s school of thought on the subject of Baptism and the Holy Ghost, as seen in chapter 2, has proved equally as influential.

In chapter 2, Snow is explaining how one receives blessings in the Mormon religion and the history of blessings and their usage in the Old Testament. Snow’s references (Abel, the people before the Flood etc.) are examples of how humanity squander the promises and blessings of God. These examples are ones that Christianity would not disagree with. Snow’s conclusion, that works are necessary to obtaining the blessings as it is a ‘vain imagination’ to suggest that one can obtain the blessings and Gospel dispensations by faith and repentance alone is where Snow and Christianity disagree. This ‘work’ however is complicated as the ‘outward work’ is that of baptism and confirmation, something that Christianity outwardly supports. So what are we to make of what President Snow is suggesting?

There is a crucial difference that emerges between Mormonism and Christianity when we consider baptism and the remission of sins. The quotations from the New Testament do stress the importance of baptism. We cannot ignore that baptism is a command that cannot be ignored (something President Snow and myself agree on), but whether baptism itself brings remission of sins is a different matter. The remission of sins in Christianity comes from the simple statement ‘repent and believe’ (Mark 1:15). Baptism is considered necessary (as it is a sacrament in every Christian tradition bar the Salvation Army) and is taken seriously but the seriousness of baptism does not take away from central tenet that the remission of sins comes from belief in Christ. Baptism is a response to that. Baptism a sign of the commitment of our lives to Jesus after coming to faith and our sins being forgiven. Baptism is also a symbol of Christ’s death.

This is important when we contrast Christianity with the Mormon view on baptism. Below are some quotations from the Standard Works:

And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins (Moroni 8:25)

And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom. (D&C 39:6)

“And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned” (The Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 11:34).

And here are some quotations from Presidents and Apostles of the LDS Church:

“Baptism into Christ’s true church by proper authority opens the doors for exaltation in the eternal kingdoms of glory, exaltation to be earned by repentance, by living righteously, keeping the commandments of the Lord, and service to one’s fellowmen” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Stone Cut without Hands,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1976, p. 7)

 

 “In addition to the physical ordinance of baptism and the laying on of hands, one must be spiritually born again to gain exaltation and eternal life” (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 78).

 

 “There is no salvation without repentance, and no remission of sin without baptism. It is a universal requirement—and yet it has its exceptions. Little children, too young to have sinned, and therefore incapable of repentance are exempt from baptism, and it is a sin to baptize them, involving as it does the vain use of a sacred ordinance” (Orson F. Whitney, Baptism: The Birth of Water and the Spirit, p. 6).

And here are some quotations from Church Manuals:

 “Two priests or Melchizedek Priesthood holders witness each Baptist to make sure it is performed properly. The baptism must be repeated if the words are not spoken exactly as given in Doctrine and Covenants 20:73 or if part of a person’s body or clothing was not immersed completely” (Church Handbook of Instructions, 1998,

p. 27).

 

 “Persons who have been convicted of crimes and seek baptism for the first time or baptism for readmission into the Church are not baptized until they complete their terms of imprisonment, parole, or probation resulting from their convictions (unless the First Presidency has granted an exception). They are encouraged to work closely with local priesthood leaders and to do everything they can to become worthy of baptism. A person who has been convicted of, or who has confessed to, murder (even in private confessions to a priesthood leader) may not be baptized unless the First Presidency gives permission. The request for permission to baptize must include all pertinent details as determined during a personal interview by the mission president (if the person is seeking baptism for the first time) or bishop (if a former member is seeking readmission)” (Church Handbook of Instructions, 1998, p. 26).

It is quite clear to see from these quotations that Lorenzo Snow, his predecessors and successors not only believe in the importance of baptism (as we discussed earlier) but that they believe that baptism is fundamentally necessary to salvation and that the way it is done must be correct or it is invalid, therefore preventing salvation. This is a crucial difference between Mormonism and Christianity and is something that Christians must challenge. Snow uses some scriptural quotes such as Mark 16:16 (He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned) to justify his position that baptism is necessary for salvation but he does seem to ignore Mark 16:17 where Christ says that those who are damned are those who do not believe. Christ does not say that those who believe and are not baptized will not be saved. This links in with the verse that best summarises the gospel concisely “and saying, the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15). When this is linked into Romans 4 where Paul explicitly argues that Abraham’s faith is what was credited to him as righteousness and he was only circumcised after professing his faith and having that faith credited to him as righteousness. Abraham’s circumcision is a sign of his covenant with God, not as a necessary ritual for his salvation. This is the same with baptism. Baptism is a sign of the covenantal promises that God has given to us through Christ. Baptism reminds us that we have died with Christ and we will rise with Christ (Romans 6:3-5). Baptism reminds us that we are members of one church but we do not have a physical mark to show for it like the previous covenant and circumcision. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. We are saved by faith (1 Corinthians 15:2, Acts 10:44-48) and baptism is an important reminder of that covenant of faith and grace. It is not necessary for salvation.

As a side note, it is wrong to deny prisoners baptism until their freedom. Not only does Mormonism, by its own standards, deny salvation to prisoners until they are redeemed by human law and withholds salvation to prisoners who suffer miscarriages of justice, it ignores Acts 16 where Paul and Silas minister to the prisoners and jailers during their captivity. It ignores Jesus telling his followers that whoever visits those in prison and cares for them, loves and cares for him (Matthew 25:34-46). This is totally out of character with what Christ tells us to do.

When the authority to baptize is considered, something that is important when we consider the issue of the lost authority that the LDS claim suffers the Christian churches (D&C 20:58-59, 72-73). The baptiser is not what is crucial in the New Testament. In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul does not claim that his baptism is what brings salvation or that Peter or Apollo’s baptisms are invalid. Paul argues that it is the baptism and the membership of one church that is important. It can be inferred that there are some slight differences between Paul, Peter and Apollos in how they are baptizing as they are in different locations with no central headquarters for the church like there are today. Paul does not claim the baptiser or how they have baptized is important or any difference invalidates them. In fact Paul embraces the Christians they baptized and does not call them to be rebaptised, instead he calls on them to remember that Christ is what unites.

In summary, Lorenzo Snow upholds the Mormon position that baptism is necessary for salvation and that it must be done correctly or it needs to be repeated until correctly done. This position ignores baptism as an outward example of the covenant of grace and as a sacrament that comes after repentance and salvation. It is a position that ignores salvation by faith and grace and is yet another requirement that is added to exultation by Mormonism. Mormonism and Christianity agree that baptism is fundamental to Christian life but it is not fundamentally necessary to for eternal life. All that is necessary is to repent and believe.