General Conference – October 2017 Saturday Afternoon Session, Reviewed by Tony Brown

 

By President Russell M. Nelson

President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

In his conference message, Russell M. Nelson President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, asks the question: The Book of Mormon: What Would Your Life Be Like without It?

He shares his view that,

‘In a most miraculous and singular way, the Book of Mormon teaches us of Jesus Christ and His gospel’.

President Nelson begins his message by recalling a time he met and spoke to an African tribal king. After telling this king that he was “…an ordained Apostle of Jesus Christ” he was asked a question. The king asked, “What can you teach me about Jesus Christ?”

President Nelson goes on to say:

I responded with a question: “May I ask what you already know about Him?” The king’s response revealed he was a serious student of the Bible and one who loved the Lord.

President Nelson continued:

I explained that after the Saviour’s Crucifixion and Resurrection, He came to the people of ancient America, where He taught His gospel. He organized His Church and asked His disciples to keep a record of His ministry among them. That record,” I continued, “is what we know as the Book of Mormon. It is another testament of Jesus Christ. It is a companion scripture to the Holy Bible.

Now here is a thought. If, as President Nelson claimed, this Tribal king was a ‘serious student of the Bible’ and ‘one who loved the Lord’, shouldn’t alarm bells have been going off in his head? If he truly knew his Bible, surely this message brought to him by President Nelson would have at least raised questions. Does the Bible speak of Jesus going to the Americas? Does the Bible say there will be another testament of Jesus Christ, a companion scripture to the Holy Bible? The answer to any student of the Bible would clearly be no.

Yes, the LDS may point you to some Bible verses to show you that the Book of Mormon was a prophesied companion to the Bible, but then they are good at taking verses out of context. The LDS may ask you to turn to Ezekiel 37:15-17 which says:

“The word of the LORD came again to me saying, “And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’ “Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.”

They will tell you that the two sticks that become one stick, mentioned in these verses, are speaking of the Bible and the Book of Mormon. This is eisgesis, that is a reading into the text something that is clearly not there. Contextually and historically, these verses are speaking of a scattered people coming back together. The Northern and the Southern kingdoms will become one, uniting under King David. Nothing whatsoever to do with the Book of Mormon.

President Nelson recalls how he read to the Tribal king from the Book of Mormon. He read to him 3 Nephi chapter 11, ‘the Saviour’s sermon to the Nephites’.

If indeed the king was a lover Scripture, there would have been much familiar to him as the President read 3 Nephi. 3 Nephi is nothing more than a collection of Biblical sayings of Jesus, and thoughts of the Prophet Joseph, put into a different context.

Presenting the Book of Mormon to the king, the President received this response:

“You could have given me diamonds or rubies, but nothing is more precious to me than this additional knowledge about the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Now if President Nelson had given this Tribal king a Bible and we removed the word ‘additional’, I would have been giving thanks to God, but sadly it was a Book of Mormon and the addition of the word ‘additional’ is troubling.

Is there ‘additional’ knowledge about the Lord Jesus Christ outside of the Bible? And if so, can this ‘additional’ knowledge be verified as authentic? And can this ‘additional’ knowledge be called θεόπνευστος (theopneustos), that is God breathed and inspired?

Questions about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon can be considered here.

Finishing his story about the Tribal king, President Nelson now turns his attention to those before him, asking the questions:

My brothers and sisters, how precious is the Book of Mormon to you? If you were offered diamonds or rubies or the Book of Mormon, which would you choose? Honestly, which is of greater worth to you?

Now, If I had been at the Conference it would have been difficult for me not to jump up at this point and shout ‘diamonds and rubies’. This would not to have been disrespectful to President Nelson or the Conference, but he did ask those hearing to be honest!

The whole tenor of his message was undoubtedly to show that the Book of Mormon is not just a companion to the Bible, but rather that it is superior to the Bible. After all, speaking of the Bible, the Eighth Article of the Mormon faith says:

We believe the Bible to be the word of God. as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon. to be the word of God.

So, it is no surprise that President Nelson reminds the Conference what President Thomas S. Monson said back in April. Monson asked:

“each of us to prayerfully study and ponder the

Book of Mormon each day.”

Notice that it is not the Bible, but the Book of Mormon that should be studied and pondered each day. One can understand why this is the message. To study the Book of Mormon keeps you within Mormonism, but to prayerfully study and ponder the Bible each day may lead you out.

 

Check out the testimony of how this happened to this Mormon Missionary

 

 

President Nelson continues to declare the superiority of the Book of Mormon over the Bible.

“Something powerful happens when a child of God seeks to know more about Him and His Beloved Son. Nowhere are those truths taught more clearly and powerfully than in the Book of Mormon.”

This is an interesting statement. He claims that to know more about the Father and the Son one should read the Book of Mormon, for ‘nowhere are those truths taught more clearly and powerfully…’

Yet, the Book of Mormon is pretty much silent on the core doctrines concerning the Father and Son as taught in Mormonism and in some places, it even contradicts current LDS teaching. For example:

The Book of Mormon nowhere teaches that the Father is a person with flesh and bones, but rather it says He is spirit (Alma 18:26-29; Alma 22:8-11)

The Book of Mormon nowhere teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate gods, “one in purpose” only, but not one in being.

But rather it teaches that there is One God in three persons (Mosiah 15:1-4; Mosiah 16:15; Alma 11:38-40; 3 Nephi 11:27)

The Book of Mormon doesn’t teach that God was once a man on another planet who progressed to become a God. It teaches that God has always been God. (2 Nephi 27:23; 2 Nephi 29:9; Mormon 9:19; Moroni 8:18)

The Book of Mormon also doesn’t teach that God is married and has numerous wives; or that God and his wives procreate spirit children, who live with Him before coming to the earth and receiving a human body to go through mortal probation; neither does it teach that Jesus Christ is the brother of every human being, and is also the brother of Lucifer.

These core teachings of Mormonism, regarding the Father and the Son are nowhere to be found in the Book of Mormon, so let’s revisit President Nelson’s statement:

“Something powerful happens when a child of God seeks to know more about Him and His Beloved Son. Nowhere are those truths taught more clearly and powerfully than in the Book of Mormon.”

Considering what the Book of Mormon doesn’t say, how can President Nelson’s statement be true?

In fact, it is astounding what Mormonism teaches about Heavenly Father and the His Son.

In Mormonism, Mary (the mother of Jesus) is the sister of Jesus, whilst God (Heavenly Father) was the one who came to Mary and had an incestuous relationship with her to produce a human body for her ‘brother’ Jesus. None of this is in the Book of Mormon, and it is certainly not in the Bible – but it is Mormonism.

President Nelson says that over the past six months, after President Monson’s challenge to study the Book of Mormon, he has asked various people the following three questions (my suggested answers are in RED)

First, what would your life be like without the Book of Mormon? BETTER

Second, what would you not know?

I WOULD NOT KNOW THAT I MUST WORK REALLY HARD TO BECOME A GOD

And third, what would you not have?   GUILT

Here are some of the answers that he received from fellow Mormons. Strangely they are different to mine.

 “Without the Book of Mormon, I would be confused about the conflicting teachings and opinions about so many things. I would be just like I was before I found the Church, when I was searching for knowledge, faith, and hope.”

Another said: “I would not know about the role the Holy Ghost can play in my life.”

Another: “I would not clearly understand my purpose here on earth!”

Another respondent said: “I would not know that there is continuing progress after this life. Because of the Book of Mormon, I know that there really is life after death. That is the ultimate goal for which we are working.”

Another respondent to my question said: “I did not have a life until I read the Book of Mormon. Even though I had prayed and gone to my church all my life, the Book of Mormon helped me to really communicate with Heavenly Father for the first time.”

Another said: “Without the Book of Mormon, I wouldn’t understand that the Saviour not only suffered for my sins, but He can heal my pains and sorrows.”

And yet another: “I would not know that we have prophets to lead us.”

Now it is questionable that the Book of Mormon gave the answers to all these questions and the thoughts people had. The Book of Mormon is not an answer book, it is merely the tool used to lead people to Mormonism, and it is here that questions are really answered.

It should be noted that the Bible more than answers all these questions and more. That is because the Bible truly is the Word of God. Of course, the LDS claim that the Book of Mormon is also the Word of God, but the fact that it contradicts both the Bible and Mormon Doctrine, shows that it isn’t. For a closer look at The Bible verses The Book of Mormon look here.

What President Nelson says next is interesting:

Immersing ourselves regularly in the truths of the Book of Mormon can be a life-changing experience. One of our missionary granddaughters, Sister Olivia Nelson, promised an investigator that if he would read the Book of Mormon daily, his test scores on his university exams would improve. He did, and they did.

Did I read that correctly? Is President Nelson suggesting that regular reading of the Book of Mormon will lead to University success? If a LDS fails a test, does a Bishop call him into his office and ask him why he is not reading the Book of Mormon enough?  Does the apparent improvement in test scores prove that the Book of Mormon is true? Is that how we test what is true and from God? Of course not. The Bible tells us that we are to test all things. The way of testing what is being said is to test it against what the Bible teaches. It was for this that the Bereans were commended. (Acts 17:11)

President Nelson then goes on to reiterate the superiority of the Book of Mormon over the Bible because:

‘It expands and clarifies many of the “plain and precious” truths that were lost through centuries of time and numerous translations of the Bible.’

This is often said by LDS but they rarely bring forth any solid evidence to support the assertion that ‘plain and precious’ truths have been lost from the Bible. This is just their way of saying you cannot trust the Bible and therefore the Book of Mormon is superior.

He goes on to hammer home his ‘the Book of Mormon is superior’ point to the gathered faithful:

The Book of Mormon provides the fullest and most authoritative understanding of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to be found anywhere. It teaches what it really means to be born again. From the Book of Mormon we learn about the gathering of scattered Israel. We know why we are here on earth. These and other truths are more powerfully and persuasively taught in the Book of Mormon than in any other book. The full power of the gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in the Book of Mormon. Period.

The Book of Mormon both illuminates the teachings of the Master and exposes the tactics of the adversary. The Book of Mormon teaches true doctrine to dispel false religious traditions—such as the erroneous practice of performing infant baptisms. The Book of Mormon gives purpose to life by urging us to ponder the potential of eternal life and “never-ending happiness.” The Book of Mormon shatters the false beliefs that happiness can be found in wickedness and that individual goodness is all that is required to return to the presence of God. It abolishes forever the false concepts that revelation ended with the Bible and that the heavens are sealed today.

Do you get the feeling that he thinks the Book of Mormon is truly of God?  Sadly, to read The Book of Mormon, then receive a ‘feeling’ that it is true and so to join the LDS Church, may lead you to believe that you have truth, but in reality it doesn’t lead you towards Jesus, rather it leads you away from Him. All that President Nelson attributes to the Book of Mormon, the Christian would attribute to a relationship with Jesus.

President Nelson concludes as all faithful LDS should:

I testify that Joseph Smith was and is the prophet of this last dispensation. It was he who, through the gift and power of God, translated this holy book. This is the book that will help to prepare the world for the Second Coming of the Lord.

I testify that Jesus Christ is the literal and living Son of our living God. He is our Saviour, our Redeemer, our great Exemplar, and our Advocate with the Father. He was the promised Messiah, the mortal Messiah, and will be the millennial Messiah. I testify with my whole soul that in a most miraculous and singular way, the Book of Mormon teaches us of Jesus Christ and His gospel.

Unfortunately, for President Nelson and the LDS, the Bible, the Christian Church and Christian history testifies strongly against that which they believe. As much as they claim to believe in Jesus and to teach His gospel, they sadly do not. They have another Jesus and another gospel. A Jesus and a gospel that is powerless to save.

If you are reading this and you are LDS, I implore you to put down the Book of Mormon and to read the Bible. Compare what it says against what you have been taught as a Mormon and as you do, ask the Holy Spirit to enable to see the ‘real’ Jesus.  I cannot promise you that reading the Bible will improve you test scores at University, but I know these words of Jesus are true:

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.  Matthew 7:7,8

This article was written by Tony Brown, a UK-based evangelist to Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, if you would like to get in touch or have him speak at your church, check out his website here.

 

Witnessing at your door – A Night with Russ East and Bobby Gilpin

We had a great time last night teaching on Mormonism from a Christian perspective and having Russ East here in Middlesbrough, UK from Utah sharing his story. Thanks to all that came and for those that did not, please check out the podcast here. Or the recording below.

It’s a miracle there’s ANY forgiveness! A review of Spencer W. Kimball’s The Miracle of Forgiveness

George Wishart and the British Pageant by Jim Gourlay

A “Protester” Reviews The British Pageant

British Pageant Days 3 and 4 Update

Well the third night came and went with a few chats, but mostly quite quiet. I tried doing the Jesus Survey that you can find at TriGrace ministries and found that to be very good. It really helps show the significant differences between what Jesus taught and the LDS Church teaches.

Despite it being quiet it was great to see the positive connection we were building with some of the LDS people. During the day myself and Jason Thickpenny met up with a couple of LDS missionaries in Chorley Town centre and we were able to explain more why we are doing this. Not out of any hatred towards Mormons but just out of a desire to explain the Biblical gospel to them, naturally they disagreed but we had a chance to share the gospel and they said they understood and respected why we were doing what we were doing.

On the 4th day (sat 3rd) we got up at 5am and went straight to Leeds to do the same thing at a Jehovah’s Witness Convention. This made witnessing at the Mormon Pageant seem so nice and easy in comparison. There was apparently 6.500 people there.

Jason Thickpenny an ex Witness did some preaching to the witnesses on the fact that the Biblical teaching on the Nature and sufficiency of Jesus being so different to the Jehovah’s Witness teachings.

For me and others we mostly held up some signs, in the hope that this would get them thinking.

On this same day one of the sessions at this convention was teaching the attendees that Apostates are mentally diseased and dine with Satan. It was clear that for many of them this very clearly included us. I was able to have discussion with someone going through the early studies to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses, I was able to challenge him on issues such as false prophecies and the fact that the organization teaches that salvation is only found with them. Naturally he was not aware of this, please pray that he makes contact with me or looks this stuff up.

Then that night we came back (being very tired) and got back out to the Pageant. This was a much better night, for me it brought the most discussions of the week, I think this was the case for others too.

We have also created two websites in connection with this outreach. http://www.CTRJesus.com and http://www.miracleofforgiveness.com here is Lucy trying to get people to look at one of them.

As well on this night I was able to speak to one of the organizers of the event. I think for the first time all week I got into a discussion with him about Joseph Smith and some of the issues raised by him. One of them was the translation process of the Book of Mormon. It seemed this guy was convinced as are many other LDS that this is how that process worked

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the most part I think the LDS church has communicated to its members that the plates were present and Joseph using a urrim and thummim dictated the words from the plates. The reality is however very different, Joseph put his head in his hat with the same seer stone he (unsuccessfully) attempted to find treasure with and dictated the supposed translation from there. I told this guy that this had previously been shown in an Ensign magazine, he did not believe this, in case he or any others are interested here it is.

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe. And when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. The characters I speak of are the engravings on the golden plates from which the book was translated.” ¹¹

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god

More on this here http://www.mrm.org/translation

So anyway all in all this has been a seriously great week of witnessing. I think we have built a good relationship with many of the event organizers and volunteers and despite the fact that they (i am sure) would rather not have us there, I think they appreciate that we are there out of genuine concern for them, with no desire to cause trouble or “protest”.

I am now back home and all done but there are still others there for the 2nd week. Please pray for these guys and if you are going along please say hi.

Invite to Chorley Pageant Training Day.

This post is particularly to the Brits, and those in surrounding areas, and its just to invite you to a very important event on the 19th of January 2013.

In the way of background as some readers may know I have been to Utah for three years running now on outreach trips to Mormons. In the last two of those the highlight has been joining a number of other Christians doing street outreach to people walking into the Manti Miracle Pageant, in Manti, Utah. every night around 14000 people mostly Mormons go to this event and there are around 200 Christians there seeking to engage many of these people into respectful gospel centred discussions. Let me say right now that this is not a protest. There was no one that I could see shouting at Mormons calling Mormonism a cult like you often see at General Conference, but rather people genuinely seeking just to have some discussions.

You can see and hear some of the discussions I had over there here.

Anyway next year the Mormon Church is doing its first ever pageant outside of the US and  that is going to be held at the Chorley Temple Grounds in the UK. This is going to be the best opportunity in the UK to do some street outreach to Mormons since the opening of the temple in 1998. My hope is to see that we have a positive Christian witness where we can lovingly engage any Mormons that will speak to us in some gospel centred dialogue. Again this will be no protest (at least on my part I cannot stop others going) and anyone that does not wish to speak to us will be very welcome to pass on by.

The Dates for this pageant are:

Week one.

Wednesday July 31st
Thursday August 1st
Friday August 2nd
Saturday August 3rd

Week Two.

Tuesday August 6th
Wednesday August 7th
Thursday August 8th
Friday August 9th
Saturday August 10th

 So as a forerunner to this we are having a training day on the 19th of January 2013 from 10am until 4pm at Chapel House Christian Fellowship, 3 Moor Road, Chorley, Lancashire. PR7 2LW.

On this day myself and Ian Moulton the Pastor of this Church will be looking at Mormonism in relation to Christianity, some helpful ideas for witnessing points, and how to respectfully engage Mormons in Dialogue.

If you are unsure if you would want to do the pageant outreach but want to learn more about witnessing to Mormons please come, if you don’t feel you would need a day like this but are interesting in being involved with this please still come so we can meet you, and everyone in between these thoughts who can make it please come. There is no charge, refreshments are provided but you will need to bring or go out for lunch.

All of that said if you can’t make the day and would like to be involved with the outreach that’s absolutely fine. Please let me know if this is you and I would love to help you in anyway that I can.

If you have any questions on this please email me on bobbygilpin@gmail.com. We also have a Facebook event set up for this day here.

A Different Jesus?

In the Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 25:26 says: And we ^atalk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we ^bprophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our ^cchildren may know to what source they may look for a ^dremission of their sins.

On Mormonism 101 a recent section on the Mormon Newsroom website stating Mormons beliefs, it says this about Jesus.

1. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of our loving Heavenly Father

Latter-day Saints believe God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to save all mankind from their sins (see John 3:16). God is a loving Heavenly Father who knows His children individually, hears and answers their prayers, and feels compassion toward them. Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, are two separate beings but along with the Holy Ghost (Spirit) are one in will, purpose and love.

Latter-day Saints worship Jesus Christ as their Savior and Redeemer. He is central to the lives of Church members. They accept His grace and mercy; they seek to follow His example by being baptized (see Matthew 3:13-17), praying in His holy name (see Matthew 6:9-13), partaking of the sacrament (communion) (see Luke 22:19-20), doing good to others (see Acts 10:38) and bearing witness of Him through both word and deed (see James 2:26).

Yet despite what these sources say, Christians worldwide see the Jesus that Mormons believe in as a different Jesus to the bible. What I want to do in this article is look at the background to the LDS view on Jesus compared to the Biblical view, focusing particularly on these 3 areas.

• The Nature of Christ.
• The Glory of Christ.
• The Sufficiency of Christ.

The Nature of Christ

Jesus is as evangelicals believe a part of the Trinity, fully God yet one of the 3 persons that make up the God of the bible. I will spend some time here looking at the biblical evidence for Jesus being God, also looking at His pre earth nature, and the LDS view of His nature compared with biblical statements on this.

So Philippians 2:5-11 says:

⁵ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: ⁶ Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: ⁷ But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: ⁸ And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

⁹ Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: ¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So we see Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God,  Jesus existed in the form of God and then emptied Himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being found in the likeness of men.

Jesus was equal to the Father, as well as this we see in Colossians 1:16 that all things were made by Him (which is also said in John 1:3, saying all things that were made, were made by Him)  and for Him. What does that for mean?

We see throughout the bible that God has created humanity for His glory, we exist for His enjoyment over ours.

Isaiah 43:7 says

Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

So if we are made for Gods glory, and we are made by and for Christ, then we are made for Christs glory if He is on an equal level with the Father meaning He is God.

Now I will get on more to the glory of Christ in the next section however in seeing something of the significance of the glory of Christ we get to the heart of who Christ is by nature as in the Old Testament God says this:

Isaiah 42:8

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

God will not give His glory to another, hold that thought for later.

In the LDS view we see a difference from the start, my understanding of this view is that Christ was the first to be born of our heavenly parents in the pre-existence in heaven. Christ being the first to be born was given a God like status as a result and He is the example of what we as the spirit children born after Christ can recieve ourselves in terms of glory and exaltation. We will not necessarily be saviours, though there is some belief amongst some LDS that God the Father was a saviour on another planet and that Christ is doing the same on His road to exaltation and that maybe we will do the same later.

However staying on point the general LDS view is that Christ had to come to earth to live out His plan of salvation to receive His full exaltation to be a god, as well as being our saviour in the process.

BYU Professor Robert Millet said this: (BYU is a Mormon Church owned college in Provo Utah)

“Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thus the recipient of the birthright of the royal family. As such, and in that premortal realm, he was the Elder Brother of all of the spirit sons and daughters of the Father” (A different Jesus? The Christ of the Latter Day saints, p.20)

Also in an LDS manual:

“Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven” (Gospel Principles 1997, p.11).

So according to this view we all have the same background and start in existence as Christ, we existed eternally as intelligences and later gained our Spirit bodies in heaven,  however He was simply first, and was chosen to be the Savior (Abraham 3:27-28, LDS Scripture)

This massively goes against the Biblical view of where Christ came from and where we came from, here’s why:

John 6:46 says Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No one has seen the Father except Him who is of God, what does that mean He is of God?

Genesis 3:19 says In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This verse says for dust we are, and dust we will return, this on a very natural level talks about our origin, being of the earth, meaning we are created and came into being on the earth. However to take away any more doubt here is what Jesus says.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus Himself says He is from above, we are from below, we are of the world He is not of this world, why is this? Because we see in John 6:46 He is of God, we see in Philippians 2 that He came directly from the Father whom He is the only man to have seen, and cast aside His exalted position to lower Himself to take the form of us, however we are of the world, we have not seen the Father, we come from the Earth.

Jesus is utterly unique in His nature and is the only one who can claim to have come from and seen the Father, as He is from everlasting. (Micah 5:2) We are finite contingent beings, dependent on God for our existence and are by no means of the same nature of Jesus only born of our Spirit parents a little later.

The Glory of Christ.

This is another area where we dramatically see differences with the biblical and LDS view.

According to the LDS view Jesus was exalted as a result of His work on the earth and gained much more glory and status as a god as a result of what He did in His time on the earth.

10th LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said this:

“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33)

 Jesus gained a fulness after His resurrection, this leads to a justifiable question, in that did Jesus actually sacrifice anything by coming to the earth then? Was it humility? This discussion in Shawn Mccraney’s book “I was a born again Mormon” illustrates this.

“Several years ago, a close friend who was LDS called me at my home to ask a question.

“All right,” he said rather abruptly, “Ive been thinking about this for a while, and I want to hear your views. What was the sacrifice of Jesus?”

“Other than his life?” I asked somewhat sarcastically.

“What was the sacrifice?” he repeated. “Describe it to me.”

This friend was not aware of my spiritual rebirth and was still under the impression that I subscribed to the LDS idea of Jesus. He had agreed, however, in a previous conversation that the true sacrifice must entail giving up something of greater value for something lesser, otherwise the exchange would simply be an opportunity.

“Well,” I replied, “I suppose in the LDS context of Jesus, there was none.”

“Exactly!” he excitedly replied. “Jesus came to earth and got a body just like us, right?”

“Right”

“And getting a body is a blessing, right?”

“According to the plan “yes.”

“So His coming to the earth waesn’t a sacrifice,” he concluded.

“And Jesus lived like all men live for most of His life, except He was able to avoid sin completely, right? Now that isn’t a sacrifice because we believe sin is never good, so by living without it, He only benefited himself, right?”

“Go on,” I said, excited to hear where this was going to end up.

“Then He begins his mission, right? Yes, He was without wealth, possessions, or a home; but this was only for a few years right?”

“Okay,” I replied with a laugh. “So the sacrifice was in His suffering and death for all humankind?”

“How can that be?” he snapped. “I agree that He suffered, but most of His mission was filled with people falling all over themselves to touch Him, hanging out with His friends and doing miracles. It was only at the end that He really endured the big-time pain.”

“But imagine the pain,” I interjected.

“I’m not claiming He didn’t suffer. He did. More than we will ever know and maybe in some dimension that we can’t explain. And I’m not saying He didn’t experience undeserved pain to boot. But tell me this, who wouldn’t go through all that suffering for a few days if they knew they would have all the glory, power, riches, and majesty forever and ever once the misery was over?”

And here we start to see the infinitely significant difference between the LDS view of Jesus and the biblical one. Look again at this passage in Philippians 2.

⁵ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:⁶ Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:⁷ But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

⁸ And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.⁹ Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I am going to use this section as my argument for the biblical view, I will go through the underlined parts and explain what I am trying to say, referencing elsewhere as needed.

1, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Hold that thought on the form of God for the next point. In the second half of this we see that He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Imagine if I took some money from your pocket would that be robbery? Of course it would as it was not mine, but what if I took something that was mine.  See this scene from one of the best movies ever.

We see here Bruce Wayne getting caught in a supposed robbery, He says I am not a thief, the Policeman says tell that to the owner, who is the owner…..Its Bruce Wayne, did he commit robbery? No as it was His to take. Equality with God was in Jesus posession, He had to cast it aside to come to earth, this was not the start of a promotion process for Him.

 2, Took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Here is where we see another massive contrast with the LDS view of God the Father. According to the LDS view the Father has a body of flesh and bones as a result of His time as a man, however here we see a distinction between the form of God and the form of man.

Genesis 1:26-27 is one of they key places LDS theology draws its support for this view.

²⁶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. ²⁷ So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The LDS view is that if we are in Gods image then God must have a body of flesh and bones as we do. This makes sense on the surface but if you read straight after the image mention you see its according to His likeness. We are in His image according to His likeness. A key aspect of Gods character is rulership over all things. We see straight after we are told we are in His image according to likeness that we will rule over the animals of the earth.

We see this turned around later in Genesis 5:3

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

In the case of Adam having a son we see he is in his likeness after his image, the New American Standard Bible puts it like this “his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.”

We see a reversal of how God made us, in His likeness according to His image, as they were of the same image.

Going back to Philippians 2 we see a clear distinction between the form of God and the form of man, here is a logical syllogism for this.

• Jesus before coming to earth existed in the form of God.
• When coming to earth He took the form of a bondservant – Man .
• Therefore Gods form is different to that of man’s.

3, He humbled Himself.

This has kind of been covered above now so I will quickly say that the Biblical Jesus humbled Himself casting aside His equality with God to take a lesser form to go through a totally undeserved punishment. The LDS Jesus had a god like status but knew that getting a body and living out His plan of salvation with the suffering and all else involved would lead to more glory and power and spiritual riches than He ever had before, this was a move that worked for His self interest as much as anything else.

4, Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

And finally here is what is likely the LDS response would be to what I am saying, well Bobby here it is Jesus was highly exalted and given the name above every name, it goes on to say that every knee would bow before Him, so therefore Christ must be more glorious now.
This I would say is partly right, however there is a difference between Jesus receiving more glory and being more equal with God, and being more like God in His nature.

Hebrews 12:2 says

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The God of the bible is a God that always seeks first His own glory in all acts He carries out, this glory is the primary and most satisfying source of joy to God and He does everything that He does in order that it might please Him.

Ephesians 1:9

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So God does what He does in us according to His good pleasure.

Isaiah 48:9-11 is where God gives the reason why He will not cut His constantly sinning people off.

9 For my name’s sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. 10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

So where am I going with this? Jesus did what He did for the joy set before Him, what is that joy? It was the glory He would receive for Jesus is God in nature and equality so like the God of the Old Testament He acts for His glory. So therefore the Father happily gives Him this honour by giving Him the name above ALL names.

For us the name of Jesus is higher than all names, because it is only in the name of Jesus we can be saved (Acts 4:12) , and in honouring Jesus we are bringing glory to the Father, this is the Trinity fully at work. God the Spirit drawing people to Christ, the Father lifting up the Son and glorifying Him, to the glory of the Father.

So when Jesus is exalted and given this name above every name He is no more glorious in nature than before but totally glorified in His position before man as being the source of our salvation. So the joy that is set before Him is not His exaltation in nature but glory before man, that we might live in and enjoy this glory forever.

The Sufficiency of Christ.

So Jesus is totally God by nature and glory, so my final point bringing it back to us is that Christ is all we need eternally. As Gods joy is found in His glory so our joy eternally and in this life can be found in its fullness in His glory.

1 Peter 4:13 says

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

When His glory is revealed we shall be made glad with exceeding joy, this is our eternal occupation coming to light here, Jesus in John 17:24 says

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

As far as I am aware the Mormon take on verses like this and others that talk of us sharing in His glory to mean that we will receive an equivalent glory of our own, and this is what sharing in Christ’s glory means.

However look at this prayer, what is Christ’s hope here, that we get to enjoy our own kingdom as a result of our successful progression and exaltation, or that we are to enjoy His glory and sharing in His glory means actually we get to be partakers in His glory in the sense of we will be looking at and glorifying Him, and the sharing is that we actually get to be with Him forever. Jesus desire was that we might see His glory, that He had before He came to the earth, this also sounds like we had not seen this glory before. Which would further support the view that we did not have a pre-existence in heaven as Mormonism teaches.

Moving  on Revelation 7:9 says.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is the desire of God for His people, that we be with Him forever. In Philippians 1:21 Paul shares His desire to depart from this life and be with Christ as that is far better than living. A Mormons heart cry would be to stay longer and keep demonstrating by obeying the commandments that they might be worthy of receiving their exaltation, Paul just wanted to die and be with Christ , 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says this:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We will EVER be with the Lord, because He is sufficient for our eternity, nowhere do we see in the bible that we are to gain our own glory and exaltation and enjoy it with our family forever with Christ being the example of all we can achieve, there is in fact quite the opposite.

On a discussion online on facebook I saw these comments by an Ex-Mormon.

As a young man growing up in the church it was really hard for me at first to understand and except the role of Jesus. There was God the father and then there was Jesus my older Brother, who was also God some how because he was perfect.

Jesus got to play the part of God the Father in most of the stories in the scriptures, except when Jesus was actually here on Earth, then I guess the real God the Father had to play that part himself while Jesus was here on the Earth pretending to be one of us mortals.

I was a middle child groaning up. I had an older brother who seamed nearly perfect at times. He got strait As in school, excellent musician, great artist, never got in trouble, told funny jokes and seamed to excel at anything he tried. He seamed was much better that me at most things. He was highly favored by my parents and got many privileges. I loved and admired my older brother and was somewhat jealous of him.

Why would my older brother, Jesus would want me to worship him, kneel down before him, bath his feet with my tears and kiss his them. Please, no brother would want that. He already gets to be God with out having to come down to Earth to be tested first, like the rest of us do, now I have to worship him too and ask him to forgive my sins because I’m not “perfect” like he is. I’ll admit I had a few jealous issues with Jesus too, like I did with my other older brother.

Is Jesus our elder brother just like us but further on? Or is He God in the fullest and most glorious sense possible, with all we need to be saved and satisfied forever?

The Joy set before Christ was the glory that he held before with the Father, (John 17:5)  when He was already equal with the Father (Philippians 2:5-11)being revealed to His people (John 17:24) that we might enjoy it forever (1 Thessalonians 4:17), don’t miss out on this by seeing Christ as merely another man with an exalted status. He the way the truth and the life (John 14:6) not our brother.