Weak Arguments #4: “The Bible says that my sectarian, partisan, non-essential doctrine is the only true truth!” by Fred. W. Anson

 

An ongoing series of articles on some common and recurring weak arguments that Christians make against Mormonism.

by Fred W. Anson
The Argument:
“The Bible says that my sectarian, partisan, non-essential doctrine is the only true truth!”

First A Little Background:
A few years ago I was listening to the audio recordings from a conference that was held in Utah to educate Christians on the differences between Mormonism and Evangelical Christianity. The vast majority of the presentations were given in a non-partisan manner that any Christian – even non-Evangelical Christians – could agree with. That’s because they focused solely on the essential doctrines of the Christian faith or simply on the actual text of the Bible itself.

But then there was this one . . .

While the conference was non-denominational and featured speakers from a number of groups, it was held at a Calvary Chapel. One of the speakers (the wife in a husband and wife team who were members of the host church) gave a presentation that, frankly, had me grinding my teeth. That’s because she would first give the Mormon position on something, then say, “But the Bible says . . . ” and proceed to spew pure Calvary Chapel dogma and jargon (most notably on eschatology and demonology) as if it were absolutely and universally held to by all Christians in the way that she was articulating it.

By the end of the presentation, I was so frustrated by such overt “in yer face” bias that whenever she said, “But the Bible says . . . ” I would just talk over her voice on the recording with my own, “But Calvary Chapel says . . . ”

Now on the essential doctrines of the Christian faith there’s clearly no “wiggle room”. In their case, please dear reader, by all means, say “The Bible says” all you like – I do. However, on the non-essentials isn’t it better to preface our statements with a more gracious and qualified, “As I understand it the Bible says” or “To me the Bible says”? If that dear but sincerely misguided sister had done so, I would have had no issues with her presentation and wouldn’t be using it as an illustration of how not to do it.

Why It’s Weak:
1) It needlessly buries the essential doctrines of Christianity underneath a pile of non-essentials.
Here’s a question for my fellow Christian readers: Do you know what the essential doctrines of the Christian faith are? Do you know what the non-essentials are? If you were asked to do so could you list them? Please don’t feel embarrassed or ashamed if the answer to any or all of these questions is no – I didn’t have a good grasp on them when I entered Mormon Studies.  But boy, oh boy, did I learn them, and learn them fast – I had to in order to survive in this rough and tumble world where acrimony too often reigns supreme!

What was most helpful to me was Theologian Matt Slick’s primer on the subject where he explains:

The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith.  They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel, and 5) monotheism.  These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary.  Though there are many other important doctrines, these five are the ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential. [1]

Figure A: The Different Types of Essentials and Non-Essentials by C. Michael Patton (click on chart to enlarge)

Once again for emphasis, the essential doctrines of the Christian faith are as follows:

The Essential Doctrines of the Christian Faith
1) The Deity of Jesus Christ.
2) Salvation by Grace.
3) The resurrection of Jesus Christ.
4) The gospel of Jesus Christ, and
5) Monotheism.

On these issues there is – and always has been – unity among Christians. Simply put if you’re not aligned with these Biblical essentials you and/or your group isn’t aligned with orthodox, mainstream, Biblical Christianity. As Mr. Slick goes on to explain, “A non-regenerate person (i.e., Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, atheist, Muslim), will deny one or more of these essential doctrines.   Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also and the Trinity being one.”[2]

Everything else is non-essential.  As theologian C. Michael Patton’s chart illustrates (see Figure A above) that’s not to say that the non-essentials are unimportant, it’s just to say that the Bible is silent, ambiguous, or unclear on them – or that they’re not essential for salvation.  Therefore, there’s “wiggle room” on them. We’re talking about things like:

• Eschatology (how and when the end times will unfold, the rapture, the millenium, the role of Israel today, etc.)
• Earth Age (young v. old earth creationism, etc.)
• Bible translation preferences (King James v. modern translations, word-for-word v. thought-for-thought, etc.)
• Ecclesiology (church government models, the roles of clergy and laity, are Apostles and Prophets for today, etc.)
• Soteriological Systems (Arminianism v. Calvinism, etc.)
• Demonology (can a Christian have a demon or not, teachings on various kinds of spiritual warfare, etc.)
• Sacrament practices (wine v. grape juice, leavened v. unleavened bread, who can administer, etc.)
• Modes of baptism (sprinkling v. full immersion, infant baptism, etc.)
• Worship styles (liturgical  v. contemporary, hymns v. choruses, choirs, drums v. organs, etc.)
• The gifts of the Holy Spirit (tongues v. no tongues, cessationism v. continuationism, etc.)
• Worship observances (Sabbatarianism v. Sunday worship, observance of special holy days, etc.)
• Food and drink (consumption of alcohol v. abstinence,  kosher v. non-kosher food, etc.)
• Various do’s and don’ts (tobacco consumption, playing cards, dancing, makeup, “acceptable” dress, movies, etc.)
• Etc., etc., etc. This is far from an exhaustive or comprehensive list of Christian non-essentials – it seems endless at times!

On these issues there’s liberty. Christians can and will have legitimate differences of opinion and beliefs on them.  Thus for modern Christians, the words of 17th century Theologian Rupertus Meldenius still ring true today:

“In essentials, unity;
In non-essentials, liberty;
In all things, charity.

Or as Christian Theologian C. Michael Patton explains, “I often tell people that there are some things which I believe that I would die for; there are some things which I believe that I would lose an arm for; there are some things which I believe that I would lose a finger for; and then there are some things which I believe that I would not even get a manicure for.”[3]

2) It takes the focus off of the essentials.
Mormon Researcher Bill McKeever has a a great saying, “The gospel is offensive enough – let’s make sure we offend Mormons with what really matters!”  Arguing from dogma, preferences, and non-essential doctrine dilutes the message to Mormons that really matters, specifically:

1) Mormonism teaches another Jesus. Jesus Christ wasn’t the procreated son of God. He’s not an exalted man who acheived deification. He is, and always has been, God eternal. (The Deity of Jesus Christ)

2) Mormonism teaches another salvation – specifically that additional works (baptism into a church, temple ordinances, temple marriage, etc.) are all required for full salvation. Rather, the Bible teaches repeatedly that we are saved by grace through faith in the atoning work of Christ on the cross, plus nothing. (Salvation by Grace)

3) Mormonism gets Christ’s resurrection mostly right but is still wrong. Thank you our Mormon friends for getting the resurrection of Jesus Christ mostly right! However, the teaching that Jesus by his resurrection assures immortality in some heavenly kingdom for virtually everyone not isn’t biblical, it’s universalist heresy. (The resurrection of Jesus Christ)[4]

4) Mormonism teaches another gospel. Paul told us plainly what the gospel is: “Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.  By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.  Otherwise, you have believed in vain.  For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,”[5] Mormonism requires works in addition to Christ’s atonement (by making observance of laws and ordinances a salvific issue) thus nullifying God’s grace and putting Mormons back under the law. (The gospel of Jesus Christ)

5) Mormonism teaches a form of henotheistic idolatry. The Bible is clear from cover-to-cover that there is one – and only one – eternal being known as God who consists of three co-equal, co-eternal persons.  The Bible does not teach that there is a plurality of gods, be they exalted, deified men or otherwise. In fact, the Bible repeatedly denounces such teaching. (Monotheism)

6) Mormonism follows a false prophet. And of course, since all the errant, unbiblical, and heretical doctrines above were introduced to the world by Joseph Smith, the Christian message to Mormonism has also first and foremost always been:  You’re following a false prophet!  While that’s not directly tied to the essentials of the Christian faith it’s still an important Biblical distinctive[6] and has always been at the core of Christian arguments against Mormonism.

3) Making non-essentials essential is a very Mormon thing to do.
Stop for a moment and consider this:  Mormonism specializes in making molehills into mountains and non-essentials into essentials.  There’s a reason for this: Because systematic theology is impossible in Mormonism, it’s also impossible to distinguish essential doctrines from non-essential doctrines.[7]

To cite just one of many examples let’s consider baptism.  Mormonism is absolute in its belief that getting baptized in the right way, with the right words, by the right person, into the right church is essential for salvation. Consider this from the official LdS Church website:

Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and is necessary for an individual to become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to receive eternal salvation. All who seek eternal life must follow the example of the Savior by being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.[8]

In fact, baptism is so critically important in Mormon soteriology that Latter-day Saints make proxy baptism for dead folks (that is, the ones who got it “wrong” while they were alive) a major focus and priority. They consume countless hours and expend untold resources in this effort. Just notice how in the following excerpt from the LdS Church website the criticality of proper baptism for the dead is dogmatically stressed:

Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5). Many people, however, have died without being baptized. Others were baptized without proper authority. Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf.[9]

Yet, when one considers the Biblical record, baptism isn’t nearly as cut and dry – or even as vital – as Mormon doctrine makes it:

Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.

Yes, there are some verses that seem to indicate baptism as a requirement for salvation. However, since the Bible so clearly tells us that salvation is received by faith alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), there must be a different interpretation of those verses. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. In Bible times, a person who converted from one religion to another was often baptized to identify conversion. Baptism was the means of making a decision public. Those who refused to be baptized were saying they did not truly believe. So, in the minds of the apostles and early disciples, the idea of an un-baptized believer was unheard of. When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith.[10]

Trust me, I have very strong opinions on baptism – how it should be done, when it should be done, etc. – and I’m pretty darn certain in my little mind that they’re utterly biblical and totally legitimate. However, I still qualify them as my opinion as such when dealing with Mormons because I understand that other Christians can have equally biblical, equally legitimate positions on baptism.   After all, I would much rather have them focusing on what really matters rather than whether someone should be dunked, sprinkled, or doused after they’ve accepted the gospel and made the decision to follow Jesus – wouldn’t you?

4) The argument unravels when and if it’s challenged by Christians who hold to equally valid positions.
This has happened to us all hasn’t it?  On more than one occasion when presenting an argument to a Mormon I’ve glossed poetic giving the logic, reason, and language of my church’s views on a particular non-essential of the faith. I’ve uttered the very words that gets the congregation nodding their heads in agreement and giving a hardy “Amen!” in our church.  I’ve been articulate. I’ve been clever. I’ve been witty.  I’ve been wise. And I’ve rested my case and sat back down smug and self-satisfied only to have some “loser” from another church or group say, “Really?  Well what about . . . ?” and then proceed to present evidence that demonstrates that’s there’s more than one valid view on the matter.  And so there I’ll sit, frowning with egg on my face while I watch while my beautiful and glorious “watertight” argument springs a leak right before my eyes (not to mention a worldwide audience). Yes folks, if humbling experiences build character then I must have a lot of character by now!

In the end, and to paraphrase and abuse an oft quoted Mormon colloquialism, “When your pastor has spoken all the thinking hasn’t been done!”  I know you love your pastor – I love mine too; I know you love your church – I love mine too, and; I know you think you’re absolutely, positively right in your theology – so do I.  But the fact remains that on the non-essentials there are a lot of good, thoughtful, valid positions out there. Getting too dogmatic on them will only get you in trouble in the marketplace of ideas and make you unpleasant to be around. If you do it too much, you’ll simply be ignored. And like I said, that egg on the face thing has happened to us all hasn’t it? So, perhaps when it comes to the non-essentials we would all do well to “curb our dogma”.

5) It reinforces the Mormon Great Apostasy dogma.
Most Mormons think and the LdS Church teaches that all Christians church other than theirs are a big ball of confusion. Consider this from the official LdS Church website:

During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ.[11]

Public bickering in front of Mormon just validates and reinforces this stereotype and prejudice.

Further, watching Christians do their “in house” debating over non-essentials on Mormon discussion boards is what some (manipulative) Mormons live for. I’m an administrator on several Mormon themed discussion boards and I have seen more than one Mormon deliberately bait the Calvinists to get them arguing with the Arminians (or vice versa) simply so they can sit back and watch the Christian fur flying and get the heat off of the errors of Mormonism.  They love it because the spatting, hair pulling, caterwauling cat fight the Christians are giving to a worldwide audience is something that they can point to and (incorrectly) say, “See what I mean? Mormons never bicker like this! We have a living prophet to guide us! We have unity, peace, and serenity in our church! We’re homogenized and boring – and we love it that way!”

The Stronger Arguments:
Normally at this point in the articles in this series we provide a series of suggested arguments to use instead of the weak argument that was originally presented.  However, this article is really more of an introduction to an overall problem that we see in weak arguments that Christians regularly make – just go onto a Mormon themed discussion board on Facebook after you’re done reading this and within minutes you’ll see what I mean.

Coming articles will echo this article in that we will present some common weak arguments that we’ve seen regularly that fall into the general category of arguing dogmatically over non-essentials.

That said, it should also be said that strong arguments against Mormonism are always rooted and grounded firmly in the essentials of the Christian faith.  Specifically, strong arguments will always be some variation on the themes we introduced earlier in this article:

1) Mormonism teaches another Jesus.
2) Mormonism teaches another salvation.
3) Mormonism gets Christ’s resurrection mostly right but is still wrong.
4) Mormonism teaches another gospel.
5) Mormonism teaches polytheism.
6) Mormonism follows a false prophet.

Like the notes in a musical theme these six points can be woven into a seemingly endless array of strong, persuasive arguments. Use them skillfully and creatively and your arguments against Mormonism will be as moving as a Mozart symphony. But if you deviate too far from them, we’re talking Spike Jones.

NOTES
[1] Matt Slick, “Essential Doctrines of Christianity”, CARM website. While Mr. Slick’s article is an excellent short vernacular primer, C. Michael Patton’s “Essentials and Non-Essentials in a Nutshell” article is the better resource for those seeking a fuller, more nuanced understanding of the subject. Finally for those who find Mr. Slick’s outline format a bit too cryptic and Mr. Patton’s article too long should consider the short but insightful “What are the essentials of the Christian faith?” article on the “Got Questions?” website instead.

[2] Ibid, Slick

[3] C. Michael Patton, “Essentials and Non-Essentials in a Nutshell”, Credo House website

[4] Yes, Mormonism gets this one mostly right – let’s give some credit where credit is due. Never-the-less, Theologian Rob Bowman of the Institute for Religious Research (IRR) explains how and why Mormonism still manages to get the resurrection of Christ wrong:

According to the LDS Church, Jesus’ death and resurrection guarantees resurrection to immortal life for practically everybody—Christian or not, moral or not—in one of three heavenly kingdoms. (The only exception are the “sons of perdition,” incorrigibly evil people that include some ex-Mormons.) We cannot discuss the three Mormon heavenly kingdoms here, but the Bible is clear that the wicked will be resurrected only to face, in their bodies, their condemnation to eternal punishment (Dan. 12:2; Matt. 10:28; 25:46; John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15). They derive no benefit from Christ’s atoning death. Only the righteous “in Christ”—those who belong to Christ—will be made alive and given immortality (1 Cor. 15:22-23, 53-54).

Finally, although the LDS Church affirms that Jesus ascended bodily into Heaven and will return bodily to the earth one day, it wrongly claims that Jesus has visited the earth bodily on other occasions between his ascension and second coming. The Book of Mormon claims that Jesus visited the Nephites in the Americas several separate times, destroyed whole cities of the wicked, preached to the righteous, and formed a church for them. In the First Vision story, Joseph Smith claimed that Jesus (and God the Father!) appeared personally to him to instruct him to join none of the existing churches. These LDS claims may seem innocent enough, but their significance is that they call into question the sufficiency and, ultimately, the reliability of the New Testament revelations of Jesus Christ.
(Rob Bowman, “The Mormon View of Jesus Christ: The Bottom-Line Guide to Mormonism, Part 5”, IRR website article)

[5] 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (New International Version)

[6] Please consider Deuteronomy 13:1-5 in light of this which says:

If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.
(New King James Version)

[7] Systematic Theology is impossible in Mormonism because any established theological system or doctrine within that system can be overturned at any time via a new revelation from the current “Living Prophet”.  The latest example of this is Official Declaration 2 which overturned long standing doctrine which banned Negroes from holding the Mormon Priesthood.  Due to the Mormon doctrine that new continuing revelation from the Mormon god can contradict his past revelation(s) no Mormon doctrine is safe from such potential action. Mormon history is rife with examples which BYU Professor Charles Harrell has done a masterful job of documenting in his two-volume, “This Is My Doctrine” book series. (link to Amazon pages for these titles: Volume 1; Volume 2)

Hence the saying:
“As heresy is, Mormon doctrine once was.
As Mormon doctrine is, heresy will it become.”

[8] Official LdS Church website, “Topics: Baptism”

[9] Official LdS Church website, “Topics: Baptisms for the Dead”

[10] “Got Questions?” website, “Is baptism necessary for salvation?”

[11] Official LdS Church website, “Apostasy”

 

This article can also be found at Beggars Bread Blog.

General Conference – October 2014 – Priesthood Session Review – by Jamie Lundy

The initial talk in the Priesthood session was delivered by Quinton L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He began by warning the priesthood holders (all faithful men in the Church) to avoid rationalizing away the choice of walking a righteous life. In LDS parlance this does not merely mean abiding by the teachings of Jesus or performing acts of kindness but was explained by Elder Cook as “performing temple endowments, keeping the commandments, and achieving a temple marriage.” These concepts coincide with LDS teachings regarding the Mormon doctrine of the afterlife.

The twelfth president of the Church Spencer W. Kimball taught,

“Those without eternal marriage may be angels. Now, the angels will be the people who did not go to the temple, who did not have their work done in the temple. And if there are some of us who make no effort to cement these ties, we may be angels for the rest of eternity. But if we do all in our power and seal our wives or husbands to us…then we may become gods and pass by the angels in heaven” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pp. 51).

It was then fitting that the LDS Apostle continued his lecture with a warning to those comfortable living the “single life.” He carefully intoned, “Single men should be uncomfortable.” Living single, he continued “is not compatible with sound doctrine.”The Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) section 132 provides foundational church teachings on the subject of marriage. In it we are told of a “new and everlasting covenant.” Those who do not keep this covenant will be damned (unable to progress to godhood), “for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.”Those covenants and contracts which are entered into outside of the temple endowment ceremony are considered null and void in eternity (v. 7,15) but if they keep these oaths and covenants ratified in an LDS Temple ceremony, “they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods” (v. 19-20a).

These teachings, of course, are out of step with both the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon. The entire course of the Biblical scriptures is one of monotheism (belief in one god). This goes back to the earliest days of Judaism. A Psalm written by Moses (Psa. 90) provides that God was never exalted but was, in fact, God from everlasting. Also, God, in Deuteronomy 32:39 states, “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me.” The righteous prophet Amulek in Alma chapter 11 (in the Book of Mormon) declares that there is only one god and explains in verse 31 that an angel had revealed this truth unto him. These contradictions follow from what appears to be a change in Joseph Smith’s theology over time.

Apostle Cook continued with many warnings to the saints to be careful on the internet and to be authentic in the use of social media. Warnings like these may have some of their genesis in the current internet crises which has struck the Church. See the Swedish Rescue documents at Mormon Think. It was brazenly declared that Mormons celebrate truth of every kind. Many will wonder, why has the Church attempted to dissuade their members from finding truths out about the history and theological metamorphoses that have transpired in their past. A recent example of this comes by way of a former area general authority in Sweden, Hans Mattsson. Who had his genuine questions frustrated and or ignored (see Mormon Stories.) All the same, these sound warnings could be heeded by all Mormons and non-Mormons alike. The internet is full of potential for good or evil. Even the good on the internet can be a distraction from spiritual and eternal matters.

In conclusion a testimony was shared and the warning tone of the lecture continued when the membership was reminded that being valiant in their covenants was the dividing line between the terrestrial and celestial kingdoms. This stands as a safeguard to those waffling in their commitment to the Church.

The next talk was given by Seventy Craig C.Christensen. The central motif seemed to relate to the obtaining of a proper testimony. All those in attendance were encouraged to strengthen their own testimony of the restored Gospel. The Church, it was iterated, was founded upon the principle that anyone can ask anything from God and hear from him. The example of Joseph in the Sacred Grove was used as case in point to this statement. Elder Christensen made a reference to ones testimony being like a tree. He asserted that a testimony is not like an on-off switch. A tree requires long term care and watering. “Our feelings will fade,” he shared, “if we do not nourish them.”

Following this was Dean M. Davies, the second counselor to the presiding bishopric (which has the assignment of administration over the lesser, Aaronic, Priesthood). His major thrust was in encouraging the members to take care of the poor and needy and to be a catalyst toward faithfulness in the “Law of the Fast.” This is an LDS custom which requires members to fast from meals for one day per month. The money that would have been used to buy food by the individual is then donated to the Church for the singular use of caring for the poor and needy. Elder Davies taught that taking care of the poor is an essential Gospel principle and was one of four divinely appointed responsibilities which help individuals and families qualify for exaltation to godhood and life in the Celestial kingdom. Isaiah 58 seemed to be a bit misapplied toward this end. The chapter was used to admonish those listening toward fasting for the poor but the context actual repudiates the hypocritical fasts practice by the Jews at that time. The Lord told them that the fast which he requires was a fast toward righteousness and good deeds to the poor.

Incredibly, after the panoply of reminders to keep covenants, oaths and responsibilities by the current and previous speakers, the words of Jesus in Matthew 11:28-30 were invoked. It was difficult to hear the lectures and get the feeling that the burden of Mormonism is light. A casual reading of the previously referred to LDS scripture passage, D&C 132 contains numerous qualifiers and legal styled verbage which would be incredibly at home with similar texts in Jewish rabbinical literature such as the Midrash and Talmud where every possible angle is taken regarding every possible subject. It was against such legalities that Jesus waged war in order to free his people from being burdened by those who put heavy burdens on men’s backs but would not offer so much as a single finger to help them lift it.

Following this lecture was one delivered by the second counselor to the First Presidency, Dieter F. Uchtdorf. He began with the story of the Last Supper in the Gospel of John. Those disciples there at the table were surprised to hear their Lord tell them of his impending betrayal. Those there inquired of the Lord, “Is it I?” Elder Uchtdorf proclaimed this attitude as a pathway for life and equated it with the parable of the plank and the speck. He encouraged the crowd to ask the same question of themselves. This type of introspection could certainly be good, however, this brings up a key issue of departure between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Evangelical Christianity. For instance, Protestants might point out that the Apostle John, in his first epistle, informed his readers that he had written them this letter so that they “might know that they have eternal life” (1 John 5:13). Also, Paul, in Ephesians 3:12 states that our confidence comes through our faith in Jesus, not from our own works or keeping of any contracts or commitments. Previously, it has been sufficiently demonstrated that the faithful Mormon can never truly be certain of his position before God until the very end. For an excellent example of the burden many Mormons carry in this regard see the April 1992 Ensign article written by Stephen Robinson (which can be found here:, note especially the section on his wife Janet). Elder Uchtdorf encourages the listener, finally, that there is divine potential that Heavenly Father wants to cultivate within each one of us. One need not wonder at this. The statement is as literal as it probably can be.

The second to last talk was delivered by first counselor to the First Presidency Henry B. Eyering. This talk was often interrupted by emotional moments. Elder Eyering had to take frequent pauses to regain himself. The message’s topic was the Aaronic Priesthood. This is a priesthood covenant entered into by most Mormons when they are twelve years old and corresponds (supposedly) to the priesthood held by Aaron. Very few, if any, of the functions performed by Aaron and his sons are actually performed by Aaronic Priesthood holders. Elder Eyering spent most of his time telling nostalgic tales of his past. Memories of his early years in the priesthood were shared, as well as memories he had of his son at the same age were used to provide tips and bits of advice for how to treat the youths. Encouragement and praise should always precede and accompany words of admonishment.

Elder Eyering shared a story he remembered from his childhood of accompanying an older man in the church on an in home visit to help a widow. Of course we can commend him for being available for such a noble task but the lesson he learned might perhaps be troubling to many. He states that he learned all that he must do to have his sins forgiven as he accompanied this older brother on this task. It may surprise Elder Eyering that Paul actual proclaims that God “justifies the ungodly” through their belief. “Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.” David himself was said to speak of the one who receives righteousness apart from the Law (see Romans 4). In fact, in Galatians 3 Paul says that we enter into promises made to Abraham by our faith because of a faithful Messiah (Jesus). He speaks of the Law in saying that it was temporary and came to increase the trespass. Now that we are in Jesus the previous arrangement is null and void just as a deed of inheritance is null and void when the one take possession of his inheritance.

The final talk was delivered by the prophet Thomas S. Monson. This final talk was very difficult to follow. President Monson appeared very frail and had difficulty not slurring his words. The opening tale was from WWII. The prophet told a story about the German ship the Bismarck. The shipped was proclaimed unsinkable and appeared to be just that, until a lucky British torpedo jammed the ships rudder. Because of this development the ship could only move around in a circle and was eventually sunk. We then hear of the prophet Daniel who was faithful to God in the face of trying circumstances and even was willing to go to the lion’s den for God. We too will be like the Bismarck if we succumb to the temptations of Satan who wants to destroy us. “May we be faithful as Daniel and Jacob, the brother of Nephi.” If we do this we are promised that we may find our way home to be with our Father forever.

Weak Arguments from Christians Number 1: Does The End of Revelation Close the Door on Mormonism? by Fred W. Anson

While it goes without saying that this blog and others like it seek to show the Biblical problems of the Mormon faith, and thus present the true gospel, it is also true to say that some of the arguments used for this purpose are not great.

I have been there many times whether on facebook or face to face and seen Christians present an argument to Mormons that they think easily wins the day, and refutes Mormonism in a single swoop. Yet even I find myself thinking “that does not prove your point at all”. And this the Mormon easily refutes it, and walks alway thinking “those darn evangelicals don’t have a clue.” 

My friend Fred W Anson from the blog Beggers Bread and I have decided to co write a series pointing out these arguments, explaining the issues, and also presenting some better arguments you might use instead. We are not saying we get everything right, however from years of experience we have found that Mormons do not find some arguments persuasive, and for good reason.

The Argument:
“Everyone knows that the Biblical canon is closed – it says so at the very end of the Bible in Revelation 22:18 which says:

I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book

So Joseph Smith willfully defied God’s Word by adding new scripture to a canon of scripture that God said was complete and forever closed!”

Why it’s weak:
1) It’s a misinterpretation of the passage.
As Bill McKeever of Mormon Research Ministry explains:

Revelation 22:18 read in context and carefully is referring solely to itself – not the Bible in it’s entirety and not to any other book of the Bible.  This is clearer when the verse is considered in it’s full context:

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
– Revelation 22:16-21 (KJV)  

Notice the use of the terms,  ” the words of the prophecy of this book” and “the words of the book of this prophecy” limiting the conditions exclusively to “this book” and “this prophecy”.  The language of the text itself limits the scope of these conditions to this book of prophecy – that is, the book that we now know as “The Book of Revelation”.

2) It’s location at the close of the Biblical canon isn’t relevant.
The reasoning behind the order of the books of the New Testament  is no mystery:  In the ancient world works of literature were bound by category,  author, and then finally by length from longest to shortest. [1] As John MacArthur’s Grace to You website explains:

The books in the English Bible follow a subject arrangement and are not in the order they were written. The arrangement mirrors that of the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament made a few hundred years before Christ…

The New Testament order is also based on subject categories. First come the historical books–the gospels and Acts. Then come the epistles–first those from Paul, then those written by the other writers. Revelation comes at the end.

The early church always grouped the gospels with Matthew first, followed by Mark or Luke, then the gospel of John. It also arranged the Pauline epistles in two categories–first the epistles to the churches, then the personal letters. It typically arranged those epistles according to size or length. The personal letters and general epistles (non-Pauline writings) appear to follow that arrangement–Hebrews first, followed by the writings of James, Peter, John, and Jude. [2]

So, just as the Old Testament Septuagint had the prophetic books at the end, so does the New Testament – it just so happened that there was only one prophetic book. Sure, one can argue that the order of the books were divinely inspired but it too is a weak argument given all the other evidence that contradicts what essentially amounts to nothing more than confirmation bias laden speculation.

3) Using this same tactic, it also be argued that the New Testament is likewise condemned in the Old Testament.
If one applies this same kind of (sloppy, out of context) exegesis consistently then the New Testament is condemned by similar, earlier passages in the Bible:

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
– Deuteronomy 4:2 (KJV) 

What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
– Deuteronomy 12:32 (KJV) 

Yet, many many books and commandments were added to the Biblical canon afterwards – including most the of the Old, all of the New Testament, and Christ’s new commandments in the gospels.  And like Revelation 22:18 one need only read these verses in context to see why this isn’t a problem – again, these words applied only to the portion of scripture that they were contained in, not the entirety of the Bible.

4) This argument condemns the Apostle John too.
If Revelation 22:18 is applied to the other canonized writings of the Apostle John (the author of the Book of Revelation) then he’s just as guilty as Joseph Smith is.  That’s because the body of evidence demonstrates that the Book of Revelation was the probably first book that John wrote with his gospel and epistles coming later. The approximate timeline is as follows:

The Book of Revelation – circa 68
The Gospel of John – circa 85
The Epistles of John – circa 90-95 [3]

This is because internal evidence in the Book of Revelation would seem to indicate that it was written before 70AD because the Temple in Jerusalem was still standing when it was written:

Revelation 1-11 alludes frequently to the fall of Jerusalem. John is called to measure the temple, without any suggestion that it is destroyed (11:1). Jesus told His disciples that within their generation, not one stone of the temple would be left on top another (Mt. 24:2). The temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 and never rebuilt. Thus, it is evident that Revelation was written before that judgment. [4]

Further, John’s epistles assume that the reader is familiar with material that’s unique to both the Book of Revelation and his gospel narrative:

Many of these themes in 1-3 John are also present in the Gospel of John. The subject of truth and the idea of a commandment of love is prominent in both books, along with the idea that God is light. “Eternal life” is a phrase that occurs with disproportionate frequency in John and 1 John. Common between the Gospel of John and Revelation are the ideas of Christ as the Lamb and the water of life. Christ is described by the Greek word “logos”, meaning “word”, in John 1:1, 14; 1 John 1:1, and Rev 19:13, but nowhere else in the Bible. Only Rev 1:7 and John 19:34 say Jesus was “pierced.” The picture of Christ as a lamb is also prominent in both books. Finally, Rev 1:1-2, “…John, who bore record of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw”, could be read as saying that the author of this book previously wrote the gospel as well. [5]

So if Revelation 22:18 applies to any and all additional scripture after the Book of Revelation was written then the Apostle John is just as condemned by it as Joseph Smith is.

The Stronger Arguments:
There are actually not one, but two stronger Biblical arguments that can be made for rejecting Joseph Smith’s prophetic claims as well as his alleged new scripture.

First Suggested Strong Argument:
Limit the scope of your argument to the Book of Revelation pointing out that in the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (JST) Joseph Smith both took away from and added to the Book of Revelation thus blatantly and willfully violating Revelation 22:18.

Remarkably, the LdS Church not only doesn’t deny this fact, it boasts about it:

Acting by the spirit of prophecy and revelation, Joseph Smith corrected portions, but not all, of what is amiss in the King James Version of the Bible. In the book of Revelation corrections, for instance, the angels of the various earthly churches become the servants (presiding officers) of those units. The lamb with seven horns and seven eyes becomes a lamb with 12 eyes and 12 horns, thus perfecting the symbolism to identify Christ and his apostles. Chapter 12 is so revised as to identify the woman as the church of God and the child that she brought forth as the kingdom of our God and of his Christ. And so forth.
– LdS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, “Understanding the Book of Revelation” [6]

Appendix A contains a list of the changes that Joseph Smith made to the Book of Revelation in the Joseph Smith Translation.

Second Suggested Strong Argument:
Use other Bible passages instead of Revelation 22:18 and reframe the argument. Mormon Researcher Bill McKeever explains:

…the Bible contains other warnings regarding those who would attempt to put words in God’s mouth. These include Deuteronomy 4:2; “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” And Proverbs 30:6 states “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

If both passages were strictly speaking to the problem of adding scripture to the canon, it could be argued that nothing should have been written (or accepted) after Moses penned Deuteronomy since it contains the first of such admonitions. In both cases these passages address the temptation for anyone to presumptuously speak for God. God does not take lightly those who would pretend to speak for Him when they were not authorized to do so. In fact, to be found guilty of speaking for God when God did not speak warranted the death penalty according to Deuteronomy 18:20, “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

The real issue lies in whether or not Joseph Smith was really acting as a mouthpiece for the Almighty. Did he truly reflect the mind and will of God by his teachings? Or did he inject his own views into what is today referred to as the “restored gospel”? Since it is obvious that his teachings conflict in many respects with those of the Bible, we must choose the latter.
– Bill McKeever, “Does Revelation 22:18 Condemn the Book of Mormon?”

Another Bible passage that I use in this regard is Deuteronomy 13:1-4 – which I like to cite from the Joseph Smith Translation because: a) It’s identical to the King James Version, and; b) using the Joseph Smith Translation eliminates getting the “it’s not translated correctly” objection from Mormons:

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
– Deuteronomy 13:1-4 (JST)

And only did Joseph Smith say, “Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them” he actually boasted about it while doing so:

I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is…God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.
– Joseph Smith, “The King Follett Sermon”[7]

I hope that the reader can see that these are much stronger arguments against Joseph Smith’s claim that he was a true prophet of God.  And if you’ve been using the weak argument that has been presented here you’ll consider using these instead.

“Landscape with St John the Evangelist at Patmos” by Gillis Coignet (c. 1542–1599) from the Hermitage Museum

NOTES
[1] This system of arranging literature was called “Stichometry”.

[2] “Why are the books of the Bible in the order they are in? Are they listed chronologically?” Grace to You website, author uncredited

[3] J. W. McGarvey, “A Guide to Bible Study”  Appendix 8: Chronological Order of the Books of the New Testament

[4] Carl W. Bogue, Jr., Th.D., “The Dating of the Book of Revelation”, a full treatise of this subject can found in Ken Gentry’s classic work, “Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation”.

[5] Craig Davis, “Dating the New Testament”, The Gospel of John, the Letters of 1, 2 and 3 John, and Revelation. Note: While Mr. Davis presumes that the Gospel of John was written prior to the Book of Revelation, this isn’t entirely clear from the text of either book.  However, what is clear from the internal evidence is that John’s epistles were written last – after both John’s gospel and the Book of Revelation.

[6] Bruce R. McConkie, “Understanding the Book of Revelation”, Ensign, September 1975. What Mr. McConkie failed to mention here is that Joseph Smith had absolutely no manuscript support – or verifiable support of any kind for that matter – for his changes while the King James translators remained faithful to the source manuscripts they translated from.  A fuller explanation and analysis of Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible can be found on the Mormon Think (click here) and Mormon Research Ministry (click here) websites.

[7] Joseph Smith, “The King Follett Sermon”, Ensign, April 1971; also see “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith”, p.345

Appendix A: Changes that Joseph Smith made to the Book of Revelation in the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (JST)
The changes from the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible are italicized in their JST equivalents.

Rev 1:1-8
John received a revelation from Jesus Christ and delivered it to the leaders over the seven churches in Asia rather than the book being a revelation of Jesus Christ. 

JST
1 The Revelation of John, a servant of God, which was given unto him of Jesus Christ, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass, that he sent and signified by his angel unto his servant John,

2 Who bore record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed are they who read, and they who hear and understand the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein, for the time of the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

4 Now this is the testimony of John to the seven servants who are overthe seven churches in Asia. Grace unto you, and peace from him who is, and who was, and who is to come; who hath sent forth his angel frombefore his throne, to testify unto those who are the seven servants over the seven churches.

5 Therefore, I, John, the faithful witness, bear record of the things which were delivered me of the angel, and from Jesus Christ the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth.

6 And unto him who loved us, be glory; who washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion, forever and ever. Amen.

7 For behold, he cometh in the clouds with ten thousands of his saints in the kingdom, clothed with the glory of his Father. And every eye shall see him; and they who pierced him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 For he saith, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

KJV
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

² Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

³ Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

⁴ John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

⁵ And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

⁶ And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

⁷ Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

⁸ I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev. 1:16, 20
The seven stars in the Savior’s hand are actually leaders of the seven churches rather than their angels.

JST
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword; and his countenance was as the sun shining in his strength.

20 This is the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the servants of the seven churches; and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

KJV
¹⁶ And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

²⁰ The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev. 2: 22
Jezebel and the wicked will be cast into hell rather than into a bed.

JST
22 Behold, I will cast her into hell, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

KJV
²² Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Rev. 2:26–27
Several changes and additions made

JST
26 And to him who overcometh, and keepeth my commandments unto the end, will I give power over many kingdoms;

27 And he shall rule them with the word of God; and they shall be in his hands as the vessels of clay in the hands of a potter; and he shall govern them by faith, with equity and justice, even as I received of my Father.

KJV
²⁶ And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

²⁷ And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev. 5:6
Twelve servants of God are sent to all the earth rather than seven Spirits of God. 

JST
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having twelve horns and twelve eyes, which are the twelve servants of God, sent forth into all the earth.

KJV
⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Rev. 12:1—17
Several changes and additions, including a reordering of verses. The woman and the man represent the kingdom of God and the Church of Jesus Christ.

JST
1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.

4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.

5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.

6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;

7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.

8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.

9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;

10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 For when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child.

14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent casteth out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helpeth the woman, and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth up the flood which the dragon casteth out of his mouth.

17 Therefore, the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

KJV
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

² And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

³ And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

⁴ And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

⁵ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

⁶ And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

⁷ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

⁸ And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

⁹ And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

¹⁰ And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

¹¹ And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

¹² Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

¹³ And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

¹⁴ And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

¹⁵ And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

¹⁶ And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev. 13:1
The beast of Revelation 13 is in “the likeness of the kingdoms of the earth.”

JST
1 And I saw another sign, in the likeness of the kingdoms of the earth; a beast rise up out of the sea, and he stood upon the sand of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns; and upon his horns ten crowns; and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

KJV
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev. 19: 15, 21
God uses the word of Christ rather than a sword to smite the nations.

JST
15 And out of his mouth proceedeth the word of god, and with it he will smite the nations; and he will rule them with the word of his mouth; and he treadeth the winepress in the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

21 And the remnant were slain with the word of him that sat upon the horse, which word proceeded out of his mouth; and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Additions in Doctrine & Covenants
And, finally, Doctrine & Covenants 77 is a wholesale addition to the Book of Revelation by claiming to be a divinely inspired interpretation of the book directly from God Himself.  For example, the woman [the Church], the child [the kingdom of God], the rod of iron [the word of God], the dragon [Satan], and Michael are explained. The war in heaven is continued on the earth.

Doctrine &Covenants 77
1 Q. What is the sea of glass spoken of by John, 4th chapter, and 6th verse of the Revelation?

A. It is the earth, in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state.

2 Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse?

A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.

3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders?

A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined order or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.

4 Q. What are we to understand by the eyes and wings, which the beasts had?

A. Their eyes are a representation of light and knowledge, that is, they are full of knowledge; and their wings are a representation of power, to move, to act, etc.

5 Q. What are we to understand by the four and twenty elders, spoken of by John?

A. We are to understand that these elders whom John saw, were elders who had been faithful in the work of the ministry and were dead; who belonged to the seven churches, and were then in the paradise of God.

6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?

A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will,mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.

7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?

A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

8 Q. What are we to understand by the four angels, spoken of in the 7th chapter and 1st verse of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that they are four angels sent forth from God, to whom is given power over the four parts of the earth, to save life and to destroy; these are they who have the everlasting gospel to commit to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people; having power to shut up the heavens, to seal up unto life, or to cast down to the regions of darkness.

9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?

A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.

10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter to be accomplished?

A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.

11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?

A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.

12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctifythe earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.

13 Q. When are the things to be accomplished, which are written in the 9th chapter of Revelation?A. They are to be accomplished after the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ.

14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.

15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses, in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?

A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.

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Utah 2014 Trip Final Thoughts

 

Well its all over, I was in Utah for about 11 days I think, and had a really great trip. I fully intended to do various posts while I was there but did not end up having the time. Which I guess is a good thing.

For the first half of the trip I spent a lot of time meeting up with people. I met up with 2 Utah church Pastors, one from the Provo area one from West Jordan. This was a great chance to learn what ministry life in Utah is like not just for those focusing on Mormons, but for local leaders seeking to reach out to and care for anyone that may walk through their church doors.

I also had the chance to meet up with a number of LDS people including a BYU Professor. Again this was great to build some relationships and understanding, there was of course some discussion on the issues that are often raised on this site, however  talking face to face I think  can be much more authentic and personal, it was great to do this with some of the people I often have dialogue with online.

The second half of the trip was spent at Manti. There I was with around 100 or so Christians witnessing for 5 nights  to some of the thousands of LDS people making their way to their seats to watch a kind of stage show, of their theology and believed history. This was a great but challenging time seeking to dialogue with people. Each night I had some conversation with LDS people and I hope and pray some seeds were planted.  Here is a video from Matt Slick of Carm.org from his time there this year.

 

One key thing that I got from the trip was this. For years now I  have been kind of living in the hope of one day moving to Utah. Part of the reason in going on this trip was to further build some links with this in mind. However I have decided that we will no longer aspire to do this. I feel challenged and compelled to keep our focus on reaching out to LDS and Jehovah’s Witness people in the UK. I think the mission field here already has such a need and significance that we are dropping this idea. At least for now. Utah Mormons you can sleep safely haha 🙂

I think one of the major encouragements from going to Utah is the opportunity to hang around with so many Christians with a heart for the same ministry that I am called to do. This is really great and a reminder that it’s no fun doing this stuff alone. Mission trips to Utah is definitely something I want to carry on doing as regularly as possible for many years to come.

If there is anyone else reading this in the UK with a heart for reaching these groups I would really love to hear from you and have you get involved if you would like too, I see running a structured ministry like this as a way of connecting with people with the same mission, please get in touch.

Thanks for all of your prayers and support for this trip and I look forward to sharing more as time goes on, on where we are going as a ministry. Posts will go back to normal in the coming weeks.

Why does Bobby Gilpin reach out to Mormons?

Hey all, some of you may have noticed me linking to Russ Bale’s  interview by Suzanne Witt the other day on why he reaches out to Mormons.

Yesterday I was also interviewed by Suzanne on why I do this, please see that interview above. I thought this would be helpful as this is a question I am often asked, and so often I think Mormons assume its out of some hatred on my part towards Mormons, of even the Mormon Church.

Please give this interview a listen and I hope you will see this is not the case. You may not agree with my conclusions, but I hope in the least you will see that my motivation is not in anyway a negative thing.

As ever I am open and looking forward to your comments.

Bobby speaking at the Apologetics in Manchester Event.

Hey all you may have seen that I was speaking at the Apologetics in Manchester Event recently, on the issue of reaching out to Mormons. For those that missed it and might have liked to have heard it please check out the audio below.

Also our very own Tony Brown is speaking there on the 11th May at 10am on Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you would like more information on this please let me know.

Bobby Gilpin speaking on Mormonism at Apologetics In Manchester

This was a particularly good day. After the event a few of us went out for lunch. Just minutes after we sat down two Mormon Missionaries walked in. We invited them to join us and had a great time. Funny how these things work out.

Chorley Pageant Training Day Update.

Hi all we had a great day on the 19th looking at the upcoming Mormon  Pageant in Chorley and the great outreach opportunity that this will be. This ministry is unashamedly open in the fact that we intend on being there in July/August to have as many witnessing encounters with Mormons as possible. We will not be there with banners saying “Mormonism is a Cult” (though we cant account for whoever else might turn up) but rather we will seek to lovingly share Jesus in light of the unbiblical teachings of Mormonism.

Anyway you may have noticed the invite to the training day on the 19th of January. For those who didnt make it, particularly understandable with the weather on the day, we have the talks given below on video and audio (right click and save target as to download the audios), please enjoy and let me know on bobbygilpin@gmail.com or comment below if you would like to be involved or you have any comments and questions on this.

 

The British Mormon Pageant evangelism training audio Part 1

British Mormon Pageant Training Audio Part 2

The British Mormon Pageant evangelism training audio Part 3

British Mormon Pageant Evangelism Training Audio part 4

Bobby Interviewed on the Mind Renewed Podcast.

Hey all you may be interested in having a listen to this interview I recently did on The Mind Renewed Podcast. We were talking about various aspects of Mormonism and the subject of reaching out to Mormons. This is a fairly new Podcast and it exists to analyse, interpret and critique matters of interest and concern in the world around us from a Christian Worldview perspective. You can get the interview here, or click below.

The Mind Renewed Interview with Bobby Gilpin

(left click to listen, right click, save link as to download)

A Different Jesus?

In the Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 25:26 says: And we ^atalk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we ^bprophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our ^cchildren may know to what source they may look for a ^dremission of their sins.

On Mormonism 101 a recent section on the Mormon Newsroom website stating Mormons beliefs, it says this about Jesus.

1. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of our loving Heavenly Father

Latter-day Saints believe God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to save all mankind from their sins (see John 3:16). God is a loving Heavenly Father who knows His children individually, hears and answers their prayers, and feels compassion toward them. Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, are two separate beings but along with the Holy Ghost (Spirit) are one in will, purpose and love.

Latter-day Saints worship Jesus Christ as their Savior and Redeemer. He is central to the lives of Church members. They accept His grace and mercy; they seek to follow His example by being baptized (see Matthew 3:13-17), praying in His holy name (see Matthew 6:9-13), partaking of the sacrament (communion) (see Luke 22:19-20), doing good to others (see Acts 10:38) and bearing witness of Him through both word and deed (see James 2:26).

Yet despite what these sources say, Christians worldwide see the Jesus that Mormons believe in as a different Jesus to the bible. What I want to do in this article is look at the background to the LDS view on Jesus compared to the Biblical view, focusing particularly on these 3 areas.

• The Nature of Christ.
• The Glory of Christ.
• The Sufficiency of Christ.

The Nature of Christ

Jesus is as evangelicals believe a part of the Trinity, fully God yet one of the 3 persons that make up the God of the bible. I will spend some time here looking at the biblical evidence for Jesus being God, also looking at His pre earth nature, and the LDS view of His nature compared with biblical statements on this.

So Philippians 2:5-11 says:

⁵ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: ⁶ Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: ⁷ But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: ⁸ And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

⁹ Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: ¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So we see Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God,  Jesus existed in the form of God and then emptied Himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being found in the likeness of men.

Jesus was equal to the Father, as well as this we see in Colossians 1:16 that all things were made by Him (which is also said in John 1:3, saying all things that were made, were made by Him)  and for Him. What does that for mean?

We see throughout the bible that God has created humanity for His glory, we exist for His enjoyment over ours.

Isaiah 43:7 says

Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

So if we are made for Gods glory, and we are made by and for Christ, then we are made for Christs glory if He is on an equal level with the Father meaning He is God.

Now I will get on more to the glory of Christ in the next section however in seeing something of the significance of the glory of Christ we get to the heart of who Christ is by nature as in the Old Testament God says this:

Isaiah 42:8

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

God will not give His glory to another, hold that thought for later.

In the LDS view we see a difference from the start, my understanding of this view is that Christ was the first to be born of our heavenly parents in the pre-existence in heaven. Christ being the first to be born was given a God like status as a result and He is the example of what we as the spirit children born after Christ can recieve ourselves in terms of glory and exaltation. We will not necessarily be saviours, though there is some belief amongst some LDS that God the Father was a saviour on another planet and that Christ is doing the same on His road to exaltation and that maybe we will do the same later.

However staying on point the general LDS view is that Christ had to come to earth to live out His plan of salvation to receive His full exaltation to be a god, as well as being our saviour in the process.

BYU Professor Robert Millet said this: (BYU is a Mormon Church owned college in Provo Utah)

“Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thus the recipient of the birthright of the royal family. As such, and in that premortal realm, he was the Elder Brother of all of the spirit sons and daughters of the Father” (A different Jesus? The Christ of the Latter Day saints, p.20)

Also in an LDS manual:

“Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven” (Gospel Principles 1997, p.11).

So according to this view we all have the same background and start in existence as Christ, we existed eternally as intelligences and later gained our Spirit bodies in heaven,  however He was simply first, and was chosen to be the Savior (Abraham 3:27-28, LDS Scripture)

This massively goes against the Biblical view of where Christ came from and where we came from, here’s why:

John 6:46 says Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No one has seen the Father except Him who is of God, what does that mean He is of God?

Genesis 3:19 says In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This verse says for dust we are, and dust we will return, this on a very natural level talks about our origin, being of the earth, meaning we are created and came into being on the earth. However to take away any more doubt here is what Jesus says.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus Himself says He is from above, we are from below, we are of the world He is not of this world, why is this? Because we see in John 6:46 He is of God, we see in Philippians 2 that He came directly from the Father whom He is the only man to have seen, and cast aside His exalted position to lower Himself to take the form of us, however we are of the world, we have not seen the Father, we come from the Earth.

Jesus is utterly unique in His nature and is the only one who can claim to have come from and seen the Father, as He is from everlasting. (Micah 5:2) We are finite contingent beings, dependent on God for our existence and are by no means of the same nature of Jesus only born of our Spirit parents a little later.

The Glory of Christ.

This is another area where we dramatically see differences with the biblical and LDS view.

According to the LDS view Jesus was exalted as a result of His work on the earth and gained much more glory and status as a god as a result of what He did in His time on the earth.

10th LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said this:

“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33)

 Jesus gained a fulness after His resurrection, this leads to a justifiable question, in that did Jesus actually sacrifice anything by coming to the earth then? Was it humility? This discussion in Shawn Mccraney’s book “I was a born again Mormon” illustrates this.

“Several years ago, a close friend who was LDS called me at my home to ask a question.

“All right,” he said rather abruptly, “Ive been thinking about this for a while, and I want to hear your views. What was the sacrifice of Jesus?”

“Other than his life?” I asked somewhat sarcastically.

“What was the sacrifice?” he repeated. “Describe it to me.”

This friend was not aware of my spiritual rebirth and was still under the impression that I subscribed to the LDS idea of Jesus. He had agreed, however, in a previous conversation that the true sacrifice must entail giving up something of greater value for something lesser, otherwise the exchange would simply be an opportunity.

“Well,” I replied, “I suppose in the LDS context of Jesus, there was none.”

“Exactly!” he excitedly replied. “Jesus came to earth and got a body just like us, right?”

“Right”

“And getting a body is a blessing, right?”

“According to the plan “yes.”

“So His coming to the earth waesn’t a sacrifice,” he concluded.

“And Jesus lived like all men live for most of His life, except He was able to avoid sin completely, right? Now that isn’t a sacrifice because we believe sin is never good, so by living without it, He only benefited himself, right?”

“Go on,” I said, excited to hear where this was going to end up.

“Then He begins his mission, right? Yes, He was without wealth, possessions, or a home; but this was only for a few years right?”

“Okay,” I replied with a laugh. “So the sacrifice was in His suffering and death for all humankind?”

“How can that be?” he snapped. “I agree that He suffered, but most of His mission was filled with people falling all over themselves to touch Him, hanging out with His friends and doing miracles. It was only at the end that He really endured the big-time pain.”

“But imagine the pain,” I interjected.

“I’m not claiming He didn’t suffer. He did. More than we will ever know and maybe in some dimension that we can’t explain. And I’m not saying He didn’t experience undeserved pain to boot. But tell me this, who wouldn’t go through all that suffering for a few days if they knew they would have all the glory, power, riches, and majesty forever and ever once the misery was over?”

And here we start to see the infinitely significant difference between the LDS view of Jesus and the biblical one. Look again at this passage in Philippians 2.

⁵ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:⁶ Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:⁷ But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

⁸ And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.⁹ Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I am going to use this section as my argument for the biblical view, I will go through the underlined parts and explain what I am trying to say, referencing elsewhere as needed.

1, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Hold that thought on the form of God for the next point. In the second half of this we see that He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Imagine if I took some money from your pocket would that be robbery? Of course it would as it was not mine, but what if I took something that was mine.  See this scene from one of the best movies ever.

We see here Bruce Wayne getting caught in a supposed robbery, He says I am not a thief, the Policeman says tell that to the owner, who is the owner…..Its Bruce Wayne, did he commit robbery? No as it was His to take. Equality with God was in Jesus posession, He had to cast it aside to come to earth, this was not the start of a promotion process for Him.

 2, Took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Here is where we see another massive contrast with the LDS view of God the Father. According to the LDS view the Father has a body of flesh and bones as a result of His time as a man, however here we see a distinction between the form of God and the form of man.

Genesis 1:26-27 is one of they key places LDS theology draws its support for this view.

²⁶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. ²⁷ So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The LDS view is that if we are in Gods image then God must have a body of flesh and bones as we do. This makes sense on the surface but if you read straight after the image mention you see its according to His likeness. We are in His image according to His likeness. A key aspect of Gods character is rulership over all things. We see straight after we are told we are in His image according to likeness that we will rule over the animals of the earth.

We see this turned around later in Genesis 5:3

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

In the case of Adam having a son we see he is in his likeness after his image, the New American Standard Bible puts it like this “his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.”

We see a reversal of how God made us, in His likeness according to His image, as they were of the same image.

Going back to Philippians 2 we see a clear distinction between the form of God and the form of man, here is a logical syllogism for this.

• Jesus before coming to earth existed in the form of God.
• When coming to earth He took the form of a bondservant – Man .
• Therefore Gods form is different to that of man’s.

3, He humbled Himself.

This has kind of been covered above now so I will quickly say that the Biblical Jesus humbled Himself casting aside His equality with God to take a lesser form to go through a totally undeserved punishment. The LDS Jesus had a god like status but knew that getting a body and living out His plan of salvation with the suffering and all else involved would lead to more glory and power and spiritual riches than He ever had before, this was a move that worked for His self interest as much as anything else.

4, Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

And finally here is what is likely the LDS response would be to what I am saying, well Bobby here it is Jesus was highly exalted and given the name above every name, it goes on to say that every knee would bow before Him, so therefore Christ must be more glorious now.
This I would say is partly right, however there is a difference between Jesus receiving more glory and being more equal with God, and being more like God in His nature.

Hebrews 12:2 says

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The God of the bible is a God that always seeks first His own glory in all acts He carries out, this glory is the primary and most satisfying source of joy to God and He does everything that He does in order that it might please Him.

Ephesians 1:9

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So God does what He does in us according to His good pleasure.

Isaiah 48:9-11 is where God gives the reason why He will not cut His constantly sinning people off.

9 For my name’s sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. 10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

So where am I going with this? Jesus did what He did for the joy set before Him, what is that joy? It was the glory He would receive for Jesus is God in nature and equality so like the God of the Old Testament He acts for His glory. So therefore the Father happily gives Him this honour by giving Him the name above ALL names.

For us the name of Jesus is higher than all names, because it is only in the name of Jesus we can be saved (Acts 4:12) , and in honouring Jesus we are bringing glory to the Father, this is the Trinity fully at work. God the Spirit drawing people to Christ, the Father lifting up the Son and glorifying Him, to the glory of the Father.

So when Jesus is exalted and given this name above every name He is no more glorious in nature than before but totally glorified in His position before man as being the source of our salvation. So the joy that is set before Him is not His exaltation in nature but glory before man, that we might live in and enjoy this glory forever.

The Sufficiency of Christ.

So Jesus is totally God by nature and glory, so my final point bringing it back to us is that Christ is all we need eternally. As Gods joy is found in His glory so our joy eternally and in this life can be found in its fullness in His glory.

1 Peter 4:13 says

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

When His glory is revealed we shall be made glad with exceeding joy, this is our eternal occupation coming to light here, Jesus in John 17:24 says

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

As far as I am aware the Mormon take on verses like this and others that talk of us sharing in His glory to mean that we will receive an equivalent glory of our own, and this is what sharing in Christ’s glory means.

However look at this prayer, what is Christ’s hope here, that we get to enjoy our own kingdom as a result of our successful progression and exaltation, or that we are to enjoy His glory and sharing in His glory means actually we get to be partakers in His glory in the sense of we will be looking at and glorifying Him, and the sharing is that we actually get to be with Him forever. Jesus desire was that we might see His glory, that He had before He came to the earth, this also sounds like we had not seen this glory before. Which would further support the view that we did not have a pre-existence in heaven as Mormonism teaches.

Moving  on Revelation 7:9 says.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is the desire of God for His people, that we be with Him forever. In Philippians 1:21 Paul shares His desire to depart from this life and be with Christ as that is far better than living. A Mormons heart cry would be to stay longer and keep demonstrating by obeying the commandments that they might be worthy of receiving their exaltation, Paul just wanted to die and be with Christ , 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says this:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We will EVER be with the Lord, because He is sufficient for our eternity, nowhere do we see in the bible that we are to gain our own glory and exaltation and enjoy it with our family forever with Christ being the example of all we can achieve, there is in fact quite the opposite.

On a discussion online on facebook I saw these comments by an Ex-Mormon.

As a young man growing up in the church it was really hard for me at first to understand and except the role of Jesus. There was God the father and then there was Jesus my older Brother, who was also God some how because he was perfect.

Jesus got to play the part of God the Father in most of the stories in the scriptures, except when Jesus was actually here on Earth, then I guess the real God the Father had to play that part himself while Jesus was here on the Earth pretending to be one of us mortals.

I was a middle child groaning up. I had an older brother who seamed nearly perfect at times. He got strait As in school, excellent musician, great artist, never got in trouble, told funny jokes and seamed to excel at anything he tried. He seamed was much better that me at most things. He was highly favored by my parents and got many privileges. I loved and admired my older brother and was somewhat jealous of him.

Why would my older brother, Jesus would want me to worship him, kneel down before him, bath his feet with my tears and kiss his them. Please, no brother would want that. He already gets to be God with out having to come down to Earth to be tested first, like the rest of us do, now I have to worship him too and ask him to forgive my sins because I’m not “perfect” like he is. I’ll admit I had a few jealous issues with Jesus too, like I did with my other older brother.

Is Jesus our elder brother just like us but further on? Or is He God in the fullest and most glorious sense possible, with all we need to be saved and satisfied forever?

The Joy set before Christ was the glory that he held before with the Father, (John 17:5)  when He was already equal with the Father (Philippians 2:5-11)being revealed to His people (John 17:24) that we might enjoy it forever (1 Thessalonians 4:17), don’t miss out on this by seeing Christ as merely another man with an exalted status. He the way the truth and the life (John 14:6) not our brother.

Why Should Christians reach out to Mormons.

As a one off I thought I would do a post explaining the reasons why I do this ministry. A recent discussion with a Mormon showed me that often the view is that people do this kind of ministry just because we have some hatred of mormons or mormonism, and we just want to tear down a church they love. The term thrown around is anti-mormon, if someone openly speaks against the LDS church thats what they are and they are not to be listened to.

What I want to do is show that Christians like me seeking to reach out to Mormons are doing first out of a reverence for God, and secondly out of a deep love for Mormons and desire to present to the truth of Christ they so need to hear.

As well as this I want to speak to Christians who maybe wonder why it is worth speaking to Mormons anyway, surely our time is better spent reaching people who have no knowledge of God.

So this post is divided into these sections.

• 1, Christians have a duty to respond to Mormonism as doing so upholds the greatness of God and declares His glory, in the face of teachings about Him that seek to make Him something lesser than He is.
• 2, If Mormonism teaches a Christ that is different to the one in the bible, then this is a Christ that does not save and therefore Mormons are still dead in their sins.
• 3, If Mormonism is not the biblical gospel then through its laws and ordnances it is placing rules and restrictions on its members that weigh them with burden, down rather than let them live in the freedom that is found in Christ.

1, “As man is, God once was, as God is man may become” is a familiar quote that comes from Lorenzo snow an early Mormon president and captures the heart of the biggest problem of all in Mormonism, lets start with what the bible says about God.

Genesis 1:1-5

¹ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. ³ Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. ⁴ God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. ⁵ God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born
Or You gave birth to the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Ephesians 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within you.

1 John 3:20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

Isaiah 44:6-8 ⁶ “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:    ‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
⁷ ‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place. ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses.
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.’”

Psalm 139:4-7 ⁴ Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
⁵ You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.  ⁷ Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?

So just from these few verses we see that God has been God forever, created all things just by speaking it into being, that He is the only God, that He is able to do more than we could ever imagine He could do, and He knows all things as well as everything we will do or think before we do it, this is the God of the bible. He is so glorious that we see here the reason why He made us.

Ephesians 1:5-6 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ⁶ to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Isaiah 43:6-7 “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring My sons from afar
And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
⁷ Everyone who is called by My name,
And whom I have created for My glory,
Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”

This God created is so that we might glorify Him, some people says thats arrogant but if you consider just how great this God is, you see that He is worthy of this praise and He has created us in such a way that our ultimate satisfaction comes from Him, going back to psalm 139 we see this:

Psalm 139:5-6 ⁵ You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.

We see this heart from Paul also:

Philippians 1:21-23 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. ²² But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. ²³ But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

God wants us in the process of knowing Him, and glorifying Him to love it, He is the ultimate source of human satisfaction, looking anywhere else for our satisfaction, and turning our God given desire to worship anywhere else leaves us lost and unsatisfied and denies the God of the bible of His rightful worship.

So what does Mormonism say about God.

Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism in His most famous sermon, the King Follet discourse said this:

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

We see this in Mormon Scripture Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans”.

What we see in Momonism is a change from God being the eternal all powerful God to a man who was exalted into the position of godhood, he is one of potentially billions of gods and is the god of our planet. Mormon apologists overcome the accusation that Mormons are polytheists which means the belief in many gods to called themselves henotheists which is the belief in many gods but the worship of one, either way Gods declaration in Isaiah 44:8 that He knows of no other gods, raises a big question.

Joseph Smith also said: “If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a Father? And where was there ever a Father without first being a son? (History of the Church, Volume 6, p.476)

As you might expect this leads to the implication that God was once a sinner like you and me, a friend of mine Aaron Shafovaloff in Utah has interviewed various Mormons on this subject, please take a look here.

So in Mormonism God becomes a man like us, subject to the same laws of creation that we are, just exalted to a higher position,  this leads to the other natural conclusion that must follow from this thinking that God in heaven is creating spirit children with His wife, the teaching in the Mormon church is that as well as a heavenly Father we have a heavenly Mother.

In 1845, after the murder of Joseph Smith, the poet Eliza Roxcy Snow, published a poem entitled My Father in Heaven, (later titled Invocation, or the Eternal Father and Mother, now used as the lyrics in the popular Latter-day Saint hymn O My Father), acknowledging the existence of a Heavenly Mother.^[11] This hymn contained the following language:

In the heavens are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare.

Truth is reason: truth eternal

tells me I’ve a mother there.

When I leave this frail existence,

When I lay this mortal by,

Father, Mother, may I meet you

in your royal courts on high?

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Mother_%28Mormonism%29)

There is no mention of ther Heavenly Mother in Mormon scripture that I know of, the most recent LDS authority quote comes from Gordon B Hinckley who was the Mormon prophet up to his death in 2008.

“Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven” (Gordon Hinckley, “Daughters of God,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1991, p. 100. See also The Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p. 257).

Logic and reason, this logic and reason that applies to humanity is here implied that is must apply to God, with Christianity God made us in His image, He made us like Him in aspects of His nature and goodness, however we see in the bible that He is far above us, has always been God and is the only God. Mormonism brings God down to being in our image and applies our limitations to Him, this is blasphemy at a very high level and as Christians we have a duty to uphold our Gods glory, and respond to this, not only that we might communicate the truth of God to Mormons, but that we might declare His glory.

On we go to point 2 which is If Mormonism teaches a Christ that is different to the one in the bible then this is a Christ that does not save and therefore Mormons are still dead in their sins.

What we believe about Jesus is absolutely essential to our salvation, if we get that wrong no matter how good our lives are, or how sincere we are then we are lost.

This is supported by Mormon Church owned, Brigham Young university (BYU)  Professor Jeffrey Marsh.

“There is no salvation in false doctrine, no redeeming power in misunderstanding about Jesus Christ, His divinity, nor His mission. As He declared, our ability to inherit eternal life is directly related to our understanding of Christ, and His doctrines (see 3 Nephi 27:15-17; John 17:3, 16-17)” (BYU Associate professor W. Jeffrey Marsh, “Doctrine of Christ restored to the world,” Church News, January 3, 2004, p. 6).

Jesus said unless you believe that I am He, you will be dead in your sins (John 8:24) this is reffering back to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself to Moses as being I am that I am. Jesus is the I am, He is God, all of the attributes of God then apply to Him, meaning uncreated, creator, we see this in Phillipians 2:1-10

 ¹ Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, ² make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. ³ Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; ⁴ do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. ⁵ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, ⁶ who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, ⁷ but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. ⁸ Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. ⁹ For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, ¹⁰ so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Jesus in very nature with God did not grasp His equality with God but emptied Himself to be a man taking death for us,  we see this in John 17:5.

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

The glory which Jesus gets in Philippians 2:9-10 is not some reward for living out His plan of salvation which is what the Mormon church teaches, but a restoration of the glory He had before He came to the earth.

The Mormon Church teaches that Jesus was the first spirit child to be born to His heavenly parents in Heaven and when there was a council in heaven of the gods deciding ho should be the saviour Jesus and His spirit brother Lucifer also born to these parents came up with their ideas. Jesus idea was chosen Lucifer and His followers, now demons rebelled and were cast down to hell.

Jesus came to earth and while taking the price for us He was also living ut His wn plan of salvation, thus this glorification He recieved after that in Mormon theology was His exaltation which was a reward for Him for doing so good on the earth, Jesus needed to get a body and do this whether He was the saviour or not.

6th Mormon Prophet Joseph f Smith said this:

“Even Christ himself was not perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68. See also Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153).

10th Mormon Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said this

10th President Joseph Fielding Smith
“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33).

The difference between us and Jesus, is that Jesus was the firstborn in heaven and so had the status of being a god right from the start, just coming to earth and doing what He did exalted Him further. Bruce Mckonkie a previous Mormon Apostle said this:

“Christ stands preeminent among all the spirit children of the Father. While yet in preexistence he became ‘like unto God’” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, pp. 442-443).

This leads to the question where is the humility in Philippians 2? If Jesus coming to erth and dying for us actually led to greater glory for Himself why is this described in Philippians 2 as humility, letting go of His equaity with God and coming to earth as a man? This is what Mormonism misses, Jesus was fully God, glorious, eternal, creator everything that God is, before He came to earth and after, yet again Mormonism here brings down God to being subject to a humans reasoing and limitations, if we have to live out a plan of salvation so does Christ.

As a side note the Mormon church also teaches that the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost as they call Him will also one day have to come to earth in a body and live out His plan of salvation.

Joseph Smith said that, “The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and is waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did.”[Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith’s Teachings, edited by Larry E. Dahl and Donald Q. Cannon (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1997)]

“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards.)

So we see that the Christ Mormonism believes in is not the Jesus of the bible, the Jesus of the bible stepped down in coming to earth and gave Himself for us, the Jesus of Mormonism actually earned His exaltation through coming to the earth and ultimately was exalted for His work on the cross and in gethsemane. Yet again we as Christians must speak up against this when we have the opportunity too, for the sake of the salvaion of Mormons and the glory of God.

Ok final point. If Mormonism is not the biblical gospel then through its laws and ordnances it is placing rules and restrictions on its members that weigh them with burden, down rather than let them live in the freedom that is found in Christ.

So a Mormons goal ultimately is to live out all of the laws and ordnances of the Mormon gospel so that they might recieve the same exaltation that their heavenly Father did.

Joseph Smith said:

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel-you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348.  See also Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 305).

Current Mormon Prophet Thomas Monson said

“It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned” (Thomas Monson, “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p. 56).

And how are they earned?

“The Celestial inheritance is for those who have accepted the Gospel of Christ and have rendered valiant service in the cause of righteousness; those who have yielded obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, p. 287).

Thats right all of them, and here they are:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.2. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to–

1. Love and worship God.

2. Love our neighbor.

3. Repent of our wrongdoings.

4. Live the law of chastity.

5. Pay honest tithes and offerings.

6. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.

7. Speak the truth always.

8. Obey the Word of Wisdom.

9. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

10. Keep the Sabbath day holy.

11. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

13. Have family and individual prayers every day.

14. Honor our parents.

15. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

16. Study the scriptures.

17. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

(http://defendingcontending.com/2007/12/10/requirements-for-mormon-salvation/)

All of these must be obeyed for exaltation, which for Mormon is the fullest meaning of salvation. Mormons that seek to be in good standing and obey these have a life of pressure and expectation. The The Mormon church owned newspaper Deseret News identified in 2007 that Utah a state that is 68% Mormon has the highest rate of depression in the USA (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695231614/Utah-leads-the-nation-in-rates-of-depression.html)

This article put together in the last month shows that More people in Utah think about killing themselves than anywhere else in the United States.

Can we honestly think the pressures of Mormonism has nothing to do with this?

Yet again what does the bible say:

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Compare that to the big list, if you do not work but trust Jesus you are righteouss, this righteousness is all you need to be acceptable to God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; ⁹ not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ¹⁰ For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Salvation is a work of Christ of His grace. We are supposed to be free from burden by knowing Christ not immersed in it. Does this mean Christianity teaches we can be saved and do nothing? In a sense yes as none of our works save us, however as the ephesians 2 quote above says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, so when we are saved God has plans for us and things for us to do, however these are works of love that comes from having from having the love of  Christ in us. Not works that a slavemaster requires of us if we want to earn big rewards.

Thats the difference between following Christ and Religion, His burden is light, religions burden is ever increasing in weight.

So if your a Christian reading this please remember this the next time you meet a Mormon, they are fantastic people subject to a religion that puts much pressure on them for something Christ would love to give them if they would only trust Him, tell them about Him.

If your a Mormon reading this please understand that my motives and the motives of others like me is not hate or a desire to tear down, but love and a desire to show you how great Christ is and how much He loves you and has for you. Even if you disagree with what I have said which you likely will, I want you to understand the heart behind this ministry.

As ever please leave your thoughts.