I think the thing that always strikes me very quickly whenever I listen to any general conference talk is this, where is the revelation? Where is ANYTHING that is new. It just does not happen. There are thousands of missionaries around the world telling people how great it is that the LDS church has a modern-day Prophet, that the canon of scripture is not closed, and that God loves us too much to leave us without the modern revelation that we so need today.
Yet none of this is anywhere to be found, least of all in one of these sessions. From what I can tell general conference exists for 3 purposes.
1, To keep people active in the church.
2, To respond, usually indirectly to criticism or comments being made about the church.
3, To keep people obedient to the church.
This is it, and in this session this is as clear as any other.
The first talk of the Sunday Morning Session is by Henry B Eyring first counsellor to the presidency, and it is onContinuing Revelation.
Eyring says this:
President Boyd K. Packer described that identifying mark of the true Church this way: “Revelation continues in the Church: the prophet receiving it for the Church; the president for his stake, his mission, or his quorum; the bishop for his ward; the father for his family; the individual for himself.”
Nowhere in this talk does Eyring give an example of a Prophecy from current Mormon Prophet Thomas S Monson. Toward the end of his talk he says this
God pours out revelation, through the Holy Ghost, on His children. He speaks to His prophet on the earth, who today is Thomas S. Monson. I witness that he holds and exercises all the keys of the priesthood on earth.
Can any Mormon give me an example of when this has happened? The only thing I can think of that has happened of any significance under Monson’s tenure is reducing the age of missionaries. Which is a procedural change at best. Right now around the world we are facing some of the hardest issues ever, yet the Mormon Prophet and therefore the Mormon God, are silent on the matter, this to me and I hope others, speaks volumes.
The second talk is called Sustaining the Prophetsand is by Elder Russell M Nelson, of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles.
This talk very strongly fits with my point number 2 above of what general conference does. General conference will indirectly respond to what’s being said about the church and its leaders, but will very rarely affirm that what is being said is the case.
For a number of years now there has been much discussion on whether Thomas S Monson is suffering from dementia. Monson is 87 years old and whether you believe he is a prophet or not, you will agree that he is human like the rest of us, subject to the same weaknesses, illnesses etc as the rest of us, so as a quick disclaimer even if this is true I don’t see this as a deal breaker as to whether the LDS “gospel” is true or not, however I wonder why this cannot be specifically and clearly addressed.
I’ve probably talked to 50 people who work directly with the church in some significant capacity who all confirm that President Monson has some form of dementia and that unless he’s got handlers around him, and unless he’s reading a speech, he’s unmanageable and incoherent, and you know that doesn’t mean he can’t be friendly to a child and wink to a crowd or wiggle his ears or read a teleprompter, but in terms of really managing the church, he’s over 90.(1)
This talk never affirms this is going on but it is filled with the idea that even if the Prophet is unwell the church is ok, here’s a quote. (bold added by me)
The Apostle with the longest seniority in the office of Apostle presides.15That system of seniority will usually bring older men to the office of President of the Church. It provides continuity, seasoned maturity, experience, and extensive preparation, as guided by the Lord.
The Church today has been organized by the Lord Himself. He has put in place a remarkable system of governance that provides redundancy and backup. That system provides for prophetic leadership even when the inevitable illnesses and incapacities may come with advancing age.Counterbalances and safeguards abound so that no one can ever lead the Church astray. Senior leaders are constantly being tutored such that one day they are ready to sit in the highest councils. They learn how to hear the voice of the Lord through the whisperings of the Spirit.
While serving as First Counselor to President Ezra Taft Benson, who was then nearing the end of his mortal life, President Gordon B. Hinckley explained:
“The principles and procedures which the Lord has put in place for the governance of His church make provision for any … circumstance. It is important … that there be no doubts or concerns about the governance of the Church and the exercise of the prophetic gifts, including the right to inspiration and revelation in administering the affairs and programs of the Church, when the President may be ill or is not able to function fully.
So we see here Nelson affirming that leaders are only there because God has put them there. That illnesses are inevitable given the age of the leaders, and not to worry if this happens. I think for now many LDS members are unaware or unconvinced of Monson’s dementia, and many are aware, this comment speaks to both of those sets of people while never affirming or denying this to be the case, this is a very common general conference theme.
Recently Thomas S Monson was pictured meeting a stake president.
This is obviously without the makeup that will go with a general conference day. There is nothing particularly shocking about this picture, it just simply shows a man who is getting very old. As we all will over time, however Nelson also makes this point.
The ways of the Lord are different from the ways of man. Man’s ways remove people from office or business when they grow old or become disabled. But man’s ways are not and never will be the Lord’s ways. Our sustaining of prophets is a personal commitment that we will do our utmost to uphold their prophetic priorities. Our sustaining is an oath-like indication that we recognize their calling as a prophet to be legitimate and binding upon us.
It seems to be saying that Monson cannot step down, that he must stay in the role till death. This saddens me a little for this man, his dementia if he truly has it is only going to manifest more over time, yet in the process he has to stay the at least named leader for this church, I struggle to see why this is such a good thing that makes the LDS church so unlike the so-called “man’s ways”.
This talk is all about the fact that the LDS church leaders know that this information is getting out, and so they want people to not worry, the church is still in good hands. Fulfilling my points 1, 2 and 3.
Nelson ends with this. (bold added)
Last year, when President Monson reached the milestone of 5 years of service as President of the Church, he reflected on his 50 years of apostolic service and made this statement: “Age eventually takes its toll on all of us. However, we join our voices with King Benjamin, who said, … ‘I am like as yourselves, subject to all manner of infirmities in body and mind; yet I have been chosen … and consecrated by my father, … and have been kept and preserved by his matchless power, to serve you with all the might, mind and strength which the Lord hath granted unto me’ (Mosiah 2:11).”
President Monson continued: “Despite any health challenges that may come to us, despite any weakness in body or mind, we serve to the best of our ability. I assure you that the Church is in good hands. The system set up for the Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve [Apostles] assures [us] that it will always be in good hands and that, come what may, there is no need to worry or to fear. Our Savior, Jesus Christ, whom we follow, whom we worship, and whom we serve, is ever at the helm.”
President Monson, we thank you for those truths!And we thank you for your lifetime of exemplary and dedicated service. May I presume to speak for the members of the Church throughout the world in our united and sincere expression of gratitude for you. We honor you! We love you! We sustain you, not only with uplifted hands but with all our hearts and consecrated efforts. Humbly and fervently, “we ever pray for thee, our prophet dear”! In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
The Mormon Church is, at its heart a man exalting organization, Jesus Christ is an after thought, I see this section of the talk as a clear affirmation of this. Why would we ever thank a man for any truths? Ever? It just would not happen. We see in the New Testament from the Apostle Paul a constant exalting of God. A constant grateful heart to God, for all things, here’s some examples.
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth Godthanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth Godthanks.
For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
We thank God for the blessings God gives, we thank God for the blessings that God gives through people. All things are by, from, and to God. No human no matter how significant their position, or great their gifting deserves the thanks and praise that only belongs to God.
For the sake of time I am going to jump straight to the last talk. Given by President Thomas S Monson and called Ponder the Path of thy feet.
Now to be fair I think on the whole this seemed a fine talk, sure terms like Exaltation that are used are ones that open theological minefields, however that aside, and casting aside the regular emphasis on obedience could take us into the faith/works debate, there were some good points made, such as:
As we strive to place Christ at the center of our lives by learning His words, by following His teachings, and by walking in His path, He has promised to share with us the eternal life that He died to gain. There is no higher end than this, that we should choose to accept His discipline and become His disciples and do His work throughout our lives. Nothing else, no other choice we make, can make of us what He can.
Sounds good to me, however what did strike me was that this was a very general, safe talk. Nothing new, certainly nothing revelatory, and it could have been given any time throughout the history of Mormonism with no real relevance to a specific time.
In recent years Monson has seems to have started a habit of repeating talks that he gave years ago. In the Priesthood session this year he gave the talk “Guided safely home”. This has remarkable similarities to the 1982 talk Sailing Safely the seas of life. There is some further discussion on this with other examples here.
I think there is only more of this to come and that this is a sign of Monson’s dementia. From some research I have found that familiarity is essential for people with this condition. Doing new things is very difficult and the more familiar surroundings/circumstances a person is in the better, see an article on this here. President Monson, has been giving general conference talks for many years, this is a familiar surrounding to him, I think giving him talks with content he has given before, with likely some re watching of these talks before conference will only help him carry out his role with this condition. However it does seem these days that he rarely makes an appearance otherwise.
As I said earlier this point alone is not a deal breaker for the truthfulness of the LDS message, however it is, I feel a cruel and irresponsible move to have someone in this position still be expected to carry out this role. It is dishonest of the leadership to not spell this out, rather just giving a pep talk that if something is wrong you do not have to worry.
In some senses this would be an opportunity to show the true prophetic gift of the Mormon prophet, that even with this condition God is giving him clear prophetic messages for the LDS church. With respect I really would not hold your breath for this. The reality is that because President Monson is not a true Prophet, dementia or no dementia, it really does not make any difference if he has this illness, as nothing new was coming anyway.
While it goes without saying that this blog and others like it seek to show the Biblical problems of the Mormon faith, and thus present the true gospel, it is also true to say that some of the arguments used for this purpose are not great.
I have been there many times whether on facebook or face to face and seen Christians present an argument to Mormons that they think easily wins the day, and refutes Mormonism in a single swoop. Yet even I find myself thinking “that does not prove your point at all”. And this the Mormon easily refutes it, and walks alway thinking “those darn evangelicals don’t have a clue.”
My friend Fred W Anson from the blog Beggers Bread and I have decided to co write a series pointing out these arguments, explaining the issues, and also presenting some better arguments you might use instead. We are not saying we get everything right, however from years of experience we have found that Mormons do not find some arguments persuasive, and for good reason.
The Argument: “Everyone knows that the Biblical canon is closed – it says so at the very end of the Bible in Revelation 22:18 which says:
I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book
So Joseph Smith willfully defied God’s Word by adding new scripture to a canon of scripture that God said was complete and forever closed!”
Why it’s weak: 1) It’s a misinterpretation of the passage. As Bill McKeever of Mormon Research Ministry explains:
Revelation 22:18 read in context and carefully is referring solely to itself – not the Bible in it’s entirety and not to any other book of the Bible. This is clearer when the verse is considered in it’s full context:
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. – Revelation 22:16-21 (KJV)
Notice the use of the terms, ” the words of the prophecy of this book” and “the words of the book of this prophecy” limiting the conditions exclusively to “this book” and “this prophecy”. The language of the text itself limits the scope of these conditions to this book of prophecy – that is, the book that we now know as “The Book of Revelation”.
2) It’s location at the close of the Biblical canon isn’t relevant.
The reasoning behind the order of the books of the New Testament is no mystery: In the ancient world works of literature were bound by category, author, and then finally by length from longest to shortest. [1] As John MacArthur’s Grace to You website explains:
The books in the English Bible follow a subject arrangement and are not in the order they were written. The arrangement mirrors that of the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament made a few hundred years before Christ…
The New Testament order is also based on subject categories. First come the historical books–the gospels and Acts. Then come the epistles–first those from Paul, then those written by the other writers. Revelation comes at the end.
The early church always grouped the gospels with Matthew first, followed by Mark or Luke, then the gospel of John. It also arranged the Pauline epistles in two categories–first the epistles to the churches, then the personal letters. It typically arranged those epistles according to size or length. The personal letters and general epistles (non-Pauline writings) appear to follow that arrangement–Hebrews first, followed by the writings of James, Peter, John, and Jude. [2]
So, just as the Old Testament Septuagint had the prophetic books at the end, so does the New Testament – it just so happened that there was only one prophetic book. Sure, one can argue that the order of the books were divinely inspired but it too is a weak argument given all the other evidence that contradicts what essentially amounts to nothing more than confirmation bias laden speculation.
3) Using this same tactic, it also be argued that the New Testament is likewise condemned in the Old Testament.
If one applies this same kind of (sloppy, out of context) exegesis consistently then the New Testament is condemned by similar, earlier passages in the Bible:
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
–Deuteronomy 4:2 (KJV)
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. – Deuteronomy 12:32 (KJV)
Yet, many many books and commandments were added to the Biblical canon afterwards – including most the of the Old, all of the New Testament, and Christ’s new commandments in the gospels. And like Revelation 22:18 one need only read these verses in context to see why this isn’t a problem – again, these words applied only to the portion of scripture that they were contained in, not the entirety of the Bible.
4) This argument condemns the Apostle John too. If Revelation 22:18 is applied to the other canonized writings of the Apostle John (the author of the Book of Revelation) then he’s just as guilty as Joseph Smith is. That’s because the body of evidence demonstrates that the Book of Revelation was the probably first book that John wrote with his gospel and epistles coming later. The approximate timeline is as follows:
The Book of Revelation – circa 68
The Gospel of John – circa 85
The Epistles of John – circa 90-95 [3]
This is because internal evidence in the Book of Revelation would seem to indicate that it was written before 70AD because the Temple in Jerusalem was still standing when it was written:
Revelation 1-11 alludes frequently to the fall of Jerusalem. John is called to measure the temple, without any suggestion that it is destroyed (11:1). Jesus told His disciples that within their generation, not one stone of the temple would be left on top another (Mt. 24:2). The temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 and never rebuilt. Thus, it is evident that Revelation was written before that judgment. [4]
Further, John’s epistles assume that the reader is familiar with material that’s unique to both the Book of Revelation and his gospel narrative:
Many of these themes in 1-3 John are also present in the Gospel of John. The subject of truth and the idea of a commandment of love is prominent in both books, along with the idea that God is light. “Eternal life” is a phrase that occurs with disproportionate frequency in John and 1 John. Common between the Gospel of John and Revelation are the ideas of Christ as the Lamb and the water of life. Christ is described by the Greek word “logos”, meaning “word”, in John 1:1, 14; 1 John 1:1, and Rev 19:13, but nowhere else in the Bible. Only Rev 1:7 and John 19:34 say Jesus was “pierced.” The picture of Christ as a lamb is also prominent in both books. Finally, Rev 1:1-2, “…John, who bore record of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw”, could be read as saying that the author of this book previously wrote the gospel as well. [5]
So if Revelation 22:18 applies to any and all additional scripture after the Book of Revelation was written then the Apostle John is just as condemned by it as Joseph Smith is.
The Stronger Arguments: There are actually not one, but two stronger Biblical arguments that can be made for rejecting Joseph Smith’s prophetic claims as well as his alleged new scripture.
First Suggested Strong Argument:
Limit the scope of your argument to the Book of Revelation pointing out that in the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (JST) Joseph Smith both took away from and added to the Book of Revelation thus blatantly and willfully violating Revelation 22:18.
Remarkably, the LdS Church not only doesn’t deny this fact, it boasts about it:
Acting by the spirit of prophecy and revelation, Joseph Smith corrected portions, but not all, of what is amiss in the King James Version of the Bible. In the book of Revelation corrections, for instance, the angels of the various earthly churches become the servants (presiding officers) of those units. The lamb with seven horns and seven eyes becomes a lamb with 12 eyes and 12 horns, thus perfecting the symbolism to identify Christ and his apostles. Chapter 12 is so revised as to identify the woman as the church of God and the child that she brought forth as the kingdom of our God and of his Christ. And so forth. – LdS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, “Understanding the Book of Revelation”[6]
Appendix A contains a list of the changes that Joseph Smith made to the Book of Revelation in the Joseph Smith Translation.
Second Suggested Strong Argument: Use other Bible passages instead of Revelation 22:18 and reframe the argument. Mormon Researcher Bill McKeever explains:
…the Bible contains other warnings regarding those who would attempt to put words in God’s mouth. These include Deuteronomy 4:2; “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” And Proverbs 30:6 states “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
If both passages were strictly speaking to the problem of adding scripture to the canon, it could be argued that nothing should have been written (or accepted) after Moses penned Deuteronomy since it contains the first of such admonitions. In both cases these passages address the temptation for anyone to presumptuously speak for God. God does not take lightly those who would pretend to speak for Him when they were not authorized to do so. In fact, to be found guilty of speaking for God when God did not speak warranted the death penalty according to Deuteronomy 18:20, “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
The real issue lies in whether or not Joseph Smith was really acting as a mouthpiece for the Almighty. Did he truly reflect the mind and will of God by his teachings? Or did he inject his own views into what is today referred to as the “restored gospel”? Since it is obvious that his teachings conflict in many respects with those of the Bible, we must choose the latter. – Bill McKeever, “Does Revelation 22:18 Condemn the Book of Mormon?”
Another Bible passage that I use in this regard is Deuteronomy 13:1-4 – which I like to cite from the Joseph Smith Translation because: a) It’s identical to the King James Version, and; b) using the Joseph Smith Translation eliminates getting the “it’s not translated correctly” objection from Mormons:
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. – Deuteronomy 13:1-4 (JST)
And only did Joseph Smith say, “Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them” he actually boasted about it while doing so:
I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is…God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. – Joseph Smith, “The King Follett Sermon”[7]
I hope that the reader can see that these are much stronger arguments against Joseph Smith’s claim that he was a true prophet of God. And if you’ve been using the weak argument that has been presented here you’ll consider using these instead.
“Landscape with St John the Evangelist at Patmos” by Gillis Coignet (c. 1542–1599) from the Hermitage Museum
NOTES [1] This system of arranging literature was called “Stichometry”.
[5] Craig Davis, “Dating the New Testament”, The Gospel of John, the Letters of 1, 2 and 3 John, and Revelation. Note: While Mr. Davis presumes that the Gospel of John was written prior to the Book of Revelation, this isn’t entirely clear from the text of either book. However, what is clear from the internal evidence is that John’s epistles were written last – after both John’s gospel and the Book of Revelation.
[6] Bruce R. McConkie, “Understanding the Book of Revelation”, Ensign, September 1975. What Mr. McConkie failed to mention here is that Joseph Smith had absolutely no manuscript support – or verifiable support of any kind for that matter – for his changes while the King James translators remained faithful to the source manuscripts they translated from. A fuller explanation and analysis of Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible can be found on the Mormon Think (click here) and Mormon Research Ministry (click here) websites.
Rev 1:1-8 John received a revelation from Jesus Christ and delivered it to the leaders over the seven churches in Asia rather than the book being a revelation of Jesus Christ.
JST
1 The Revelation of John, a servant of God, which was given unto him of Jesus Christ, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass, that he sent and signified by his angel unto his servant John,
2 Who bore record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed are they who read, and they who hear and understand the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein, for the time of the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
4 Now this is the testimony of John to the seven servants who are overthe seven churches in Asia. Grace unto you, and peace from him who is, and who was, and who is to come; who hath sent forth his angel frombefore his throne, to testify unto those who are the seven servants over the seven churches.
5 Therefore, I, John, the faithful witness, bear record of the things which were delivered me of the angel, and from Jesus Christ the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth.
6 And unto him who loved us, be glory; who washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion, forever and ever. Amen.
7 For behold, he cometh in the clouds with ten thousands of his saints in the kingdom, clothed with the glory of his Father. And every eye shall see him; and they who pierced him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 For he saith, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
KJV 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev. 1:16, 20 The seven stars in the Savior’s hand are actually leaders of the seven churches rather than their angels.
JST
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword; and his countenance was as the sun shining in his strength.
20 This is the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the servants of the seven churches; and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rev. 2: 22 Jezebel and the wicked will be cast into hell rather than into a bed.
JST
22 Behold, I will cast her into hell, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
KJV 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev. 2:26–27 Several changes and additions made
JST 26 And to him who overcometh, and keepeth my commandments unto the end, will I give power over many kingdoms;
27 And he shall rule them with the word of God; and they shall be in his hands as the vessels of clay in the hands of a potter; and he shall govern them by faith, with equity and justice, even as I received of my Father.
KJV 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev. 5:6 Twelve servants of God are sent to all the earth rather than seven Spirits of God.
JST
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having twelve horns and twelve eyes, which are the twelve servants of God, sent forth into all the earth.
KJV 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev. 12:1—17 Several changes and additions, including a reordering of verses. The woman and the man represent the kingdom of God and the Church of Jesus Christ.
JST 1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.
4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.
5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.
6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;
7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.
8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.
9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;
10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 For when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child.
14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent casteth out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helpeth the woman, and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth up the flood which the dragon casteth out of his mouth.
17 Therefore, the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev. 13:1 The beast of Revelation 13 is in “the likeness of the kingdoms of the earth.”
JST
1 And I saw another sign, in the likeness of the kingdoms of the earth; a beast rise up out of the sea, and he stood upon the sand of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns; and upon his horns ten crowns; and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev. 19: 15, 21 God uses the word of Christ rather than a sword to smite the nations.
JST
15 And out of his mouth proceedeth the word of god, and with it he will smite the nations; and he will rule them with the word of his mouth; and he treadeth the winepress in the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
21 And the remnant were slain with the word of him that sat upon the horse, which word proceeded out of his mouth; and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
KJV 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Additions in Doctrine & Covenants
And, finally, Doctrine & Covenants 77 is a wholesale addition to the Book of Revelation by claiming to be a divinely inspired interpretation of the book directly from God Himself. For example, the woman [the Church], the child [the kingdom of God], the rod of iron [the word of God], the dragon [Satan], and Michael are explained. The war in heaven is continued on the earth.
Doctrine &Covenants 77 1 Q. What is the sea of glass spoken of by John, 4th chapter, and 6th verse of the Revelation?
A. It is the earth, in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state.
2 Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse?
A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.
3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders?
A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined order or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.
4 Q. What are we to understand by the eyes and wings, which the beasts had?
A. Their eyes are a representation of light and knowledge, that is, they are full of knowledge; and their wings are a representation of power, to move, to act, etc.
5 Q. What are we to understand by the four and twenty elders, spoken of by John?
A. We are to understand that these elders whom John saw, were elders who had been faithful in the work of the ministry and were dead; who belonged to the seven churches, and were then in the paradise of God.
6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will,mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.
8 Q. What are we to understand by the four angels, spoken of in the 7th chapter and 1st verse of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that they are four angels sent forth from God, to whom is given power over the four parts of the earth, to save life and to destroy; these are they who have the everlasting gospel to commit to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people; having power to shut up the heavens, to seal up unto life, or to cast down to the regions of darkness.
9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.
10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter to be accomplished?
A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.
12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctifythe earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.
13 Q. When are the things to be accomplished, which are written in the 9th chapter of Revelation?A. They are to be accomplished after the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ.
14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.
15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses, in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?
A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.
Having been given free rein to pick a chapter from this year’s LDS adult Sunday School manual to review, I decided to see what would be being taught near the time my post was due to go online. I discovered that it was chapter 10, entitled: ‘Our Search for Truth’.
The title seems entirely appropriate, given the aims, intentions and purposes of our website.
The chapter begins with this quote:
“It is a requirement that is made of us, as members of this Church, to make ourselves familiar with that which the Lord has revealed, that we may not be led astray. … How are we going to walk in the truth if we do not know it?”
As a Mormon, one feels a sense of being in a safe place when immersing oneself in this world of church publications, which are all so well-produced to a high standard and give off an air of authority. The program is all there for you as laid out by the church, and all that is needed is to read, teach and learn from these authorised materials and you come away with a sense of purposefulness and security which is greatly appealing to those who feel lost or directionless in the world. So, from the standpoint of us who contribute to this website, what may be said of the intention of this chapter, that of making, “ourselves familiar with that which the Lord has revealed, that we may not be led astray”? Well, I intend to show that focusing on, and being familiar with, ‘that which the Lord has revealed’, can be a tricky business for the LDS seeker of truth.
Looking to LDS scripture, one can become easily confused when trying to ascertain a clear picture of the nature of God. For example, the Book of Mormon is clear in Alma 11 that there is only one God: “And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.” There are many other passages in the Book of Mormon that affirm the same teaching, and the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon support this also, as stated at the end of their testimony printed at the front of the book: “And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God.” When reading from The Pearl of Great Price, those words start to become problematic, since we have Moses 2 on the one hand, which reads: “And I, God, said: Let there be light; and there was light” whilst in Abraham 4 one reads: “And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.” The problem of knowing what to believe when confronted with words that the LDS church claims are revealed by God starts to become apparent.
Further LDS teaching relating to the nature of God merely adds to the difficulties. For example, the Book of Mormon God is a spirit: “the king said: Is God that Great Spirit that brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem? And Aaron said unto him: Yea, he is that Great Spirit, and he created all things both in heaven and in earth.” (Alma 22:9-10) but the Doctrine & Covenants God “has a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man’s”. (D & C 130:22)
The contradictions between the Book of Mormon and later LDS scripture continue when faced with the teaching of whether or not God may dwell in people’s hearts:
Book of Mormon: “the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell” (Alma 34:36)
Doctrine and Covenants:“the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.” (Section 130:3)
Again, one can see in the following example that Book of Mormon teaching goes against subsequent teaching/ practice carried out in the LDS church. Let me present to you the words of Ether 8:18-19:
“And it came to pass that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God; For the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that man should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man.” Here it is plainly the writer’s intention for it to be understood that God does not go about working in a secretive fashion. This brings to mind Jesus’ words when on trial, “I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.” (John 18:20)
Yet we know that, for Mormons, God does indeed work in secretive ways, since the actions and wording involved in the secret temple oaths past and present are nowadays accessible to all who wish to learn about them. The ‘obligation of secrecy’ regarding the oaths taken in the Mormon temple are of the utmost seriousness to the temple-worthy Mormon. It is clear that the Book of Mormon theme of ‘secret combinations’, which is mentioned in several places throughout the book, presents a view that would suggest that God would not tolerate secretive oaths (even blood oaths as they were) to take place in his one true church.
I could continue with a great many more such differences, but will add only one more. Let us look together at Jacob 2:24, “David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.” There are a great many examples in the Book of Mormon where such a stance regarding plural wives is taken. Yet other LDS scripture has the opposite view, expressed in strident terms: “I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory… David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.” (D & C 132: 4 & 38)
Clearly verse 4 is stating in no uncertain terms that the ‘new and everlasting covenant’ of plural marriage is essential in order to ‘enter into (God’s) glory’, and part of the justification for this ‘new and everlasting covenant’ comes from the precedent stated in verse 38, that of David, Solomon and Moses receiving many wives (and concubines!) which was not sinful of them! Yet the Book of Mormon has God saying this was an abomination. Great confusion reigns here once again.
To return to chapter 10 from the ‘Teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith’ manual, remember those words quoted earlier: “How are we going to walk in the truth if we do not know it?” Points 2 and 3 from chapter 10 state: “The Lord has commanded us to search the scriptures… We have a great responsibility to hearken to the message of truth that the Lord is now revealing to His servants.” I wonder how the truth can be known using LDS scripture with so many blatant contradictions with which to contend.
Fortunately, there is another way: “ …whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me” (John 14:4-11)
This is the way. HE is the way. HE is the truth! Ultimately that is what counts. Not seeking ‘the truth’ in LDS scripture. It is about knowing and (more importantly) being known by, God Himself. When we trust that Jesus is our way and is the truth, we can begin to understand that He is also ‘the life’. This is His gospel and it is far richer and more liberating than the ‘impossible gospel’ of Mormonism.
Often sites like this spend time talking about why Mormons are not Christian, and this site of course does spend a lot of time looking at areas in Mormonism that Christians would generally disagree with, and will unashamedly carry on doing so.
However I thought it would be helpful to lay out what a Christian is, without specifically relating it to Mormonism. This will hopefully speak for itself in showing why this issue comes up so often, as ever I would love to hear your thoughts.
I will do this by focusing on these areas:
What is our purpose in existence?
What is our standing before God by default?
Why do we need to become a Christian?
What is my definition of a Christian?
1, What is our purpose in existence?
So firstly I think our purpose in existence is totally and utterly to glorify God. Isaiah 43:6-7 says:
I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
We are formed or created for His glory, we even see examples in the Old Testament that when God was merciful to His people, this again was primarily for His glory.
Isaiah 48:9-11
For My name’s sake I defer my anger, for the sake of My praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you but not like silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. For My own sake, for My own sake I do it,
for how should My name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another.
For God, the upholding of His name and the declaration of His glory is more significant than anything. I think the reason Christ came and did what He did for us, again was primarily to uphold the glory of God, so that we as forgiven sinners might begin to glorify Him and live in our created purpose. We are entirely secondary in this equation. However we are also created in such a way that we find our complete satisfaction and completion in life from union with Him.
Psalm 16:11Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
There is nothing in life that compares to union with God, not spouse not kids, not family not friends not objects not anything compares with knowing God. We see Paul’s heart cry in Philippians 1:21-24
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Paul’s absolute desire was to die and be with Christ, as He knew that this was better than ANYTHING else. Yet for the sake of His work for the gospel he carried on.
God has created us to enjoy Him, glorify Him love Him and produce God honouring fruitful works for Him. My favourite preacher John Piper said this:
“God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.”
2, What is our standing before God by default?
So my second area of discussion is what is our standing before God by defaultor just when someone is not a Christian.
As you likely know the Bible teaches humanity started off in the Garden of Eden with no sin and perfect union with God. However this happened.
Romans 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
This union with God ended, we became dead, not in the physical sense but dead in our sins.
Ephesians 2:1 speaking to Christians but about before they were Christians says:
And you has he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins
We were dead in our sins, because of this fall, Ephesians 2:3 goes even further to say:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
We were by nature children of wrath, meaning the non Christian is dead in their sins and by nature a child of wrath. So here is a problem, God has created humanity for His glory, for this relationship, for these God honouring works yet because of this fall, because of this sinful state, humanity ceases to be able to glorify God. We actually because of this sinfullness are then fully subject to the wrath of God. Many people like to use the phrase, God hates the sin but loves the sinner, lets see what the Bible says about that
Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
God hates sinners, there is nothing but condemnation coming for them. This idea of God hates the sin but loves the sinner is not Biblical. This does not take away from love the Father displayed in sending His Son to save us, however as we saw above in Isaiah 48:9-11 this was primarily to uphold His glory, making us into children of light rather than children of wrath, no longer separated from God so much that He does not even hear us. (Isaiah 59:2 see below) Rather making us united with Him, righteous in His sight and no longer living in the condemnation of the sin that made Him hate us so much, as we saw so clearly manifest in the days of Noah.
Isaiah 59:2 also says But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
God does not even hear us in this sinful state of separation from Him. Sin is actually a nature rather than just simply actions, Isaiah 64:6 says
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness’s are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Even the good dead’s (or righteousness’s) of someone dead in their sins is worthless in Gods sight, Something had to be done in order that humanity might be able to have this union with God again. God was not glorified by this humanity As in this position there is nothing we can do to please God, therefore there is nothing we can do to get back into this union with Him. We needed to be saved.
So Christ came and died in our place as the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and rose again . This is where salvation by nothing but the grace of God starts to be important.
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
So moving onto part 3.
3, Why do we need to become a Christian?
As I hope I have shown we are totally unable of getting ourselves out of this mess, now finally time for some good news.
Ephesians 2:8-10 says it all here but I will obviously explain
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
By grace we are saved, meaning saved from the wrath of God, saved from having no connection with God, saved from Him not even hearing us, saved from our inability to do works that Glorify our God, the very thing we were created to do in the first place.
By grace we we are saved through faith not of ourselves, no one can boast we are HIS workmanship. Do you see where the glory is going for our salvation here, He has done it all. We are then created or recreated in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained long before that we should do.
Romans 4:5 says But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
The reason us evangelicals go on about salvation by faith and grace alone so much is not because we are lazy, but because we know how totally worthless and like filthy rags any works we could ever do are, unless we get our righteousness and salvation first,so that we can then go on to do good works.
2 Corinthians 5:17 says: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
If your truly in Christ you are a new creation, just like Adam again at day one, made new and able again to please God. Yet this time you are not reliant upon your own righteousness, you carry the righteousness of Christ, therefore there is no condemnation for you (Romans 8:1) and your sin is not counted against you (Romans 4:7-8 make sure you check that one) so the reason someone absolutely must become a Christian as without it, they are dead in their sin and condemned eternally. There is no way out, other than by trusting in Christ, being made a new creation and then carrying His righteousness.
If all of this has truly happened then good works MUST follow as you realize just how much you have just been given
Luke 7:44-50
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. 49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
If you are truly forgiven and saved and you truly know the wrath that you have been saved from, by no works of your own then you are going to love and glorify this amazing God a serious amount. If you haven’t and its all lip service, then James 2 has a lot to say to you.
4,What is my definition of a Christian?
So what is a Christian? A Christian has seen the hopelessness of their situation before God, that they have sinned and fallen short of His glory, (Romans 3:23) and in their brokenness have confessed their sin, surrendering their entire self to Him in faith, trusting in what Christ did for them, this lost sinner becomes a saved, redeemed, secure individual, complete in Christ (Colossians 2:10) has no condemnation for their sin anymore, (Romans 8:1), knows they have eternal life (1 John 5:13) and therefore loves Christ and the world a great deal, which will be displayed in their actions (James 2:20).
Firstly, I have to say that I am very jealous of MikeTea getting to write a response to a talk given by Randy D Funk. I would have filled plenty of lines just commenting on what a great name he has!
From the Sunday Afternoon Session, I have chosen to focus on a talk given by Kevin Hamilton who is a ‘Seventy’. I believe this puts him on what could be a similar footing to a Catholic Cardinal or Anglican Bishop, although I am happy to stand corrected as I am not an expert in Catholic or Anglican leadership hierarchy. Regardless, he is worth listening to if you are a member of the one and only church that contains the authentic, restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
Hamilton’s talk was on the theme of “continually holding fast to the iron rod”. Hamilton referred at length to Lehi’s vision from the Book of Mormon. This vision has remarkable similarities to a vision that Joseph Smith’s father, Joseph Smith Senior, was said to have had in 1811 according to Joseph Smith Jr’s mother, Lucy Mack Smith. At this time, Joseph Smith Jr. was a young boy. It is well documented that Smith Sr. was prone to vivid dreams or visions, and it is very likely that Smith Jr. was well versed in his father’s ‘tree of life’ vision when he came to write the Book of Mormon.
In the Book of Mormon version, Lehi, Nephi’s father, is sharing a vision with his family. There are many people in this vision who are trying to reach the path that leads to the tree where Lehi is standing. Alongside this path, is a rod (like a handrail) that you can hold on to in order to keep on the path leading to the tree of life. Alongside the path is a river and across from the river was “a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.” People in this building were looking out at those on the path and mocking them. (It has been noted by some that artistic depictions of this building used in LDS teaching material, seem to have an uncanny resemblance to the relatively recently built LDS conference centre. Do an online search for images of both and decide for yourself!) The vision talks about different groups of people who attempt to walk along the path. Some lose their way because there are mists obscuring their sight (obviously, they should have held onto the rod), others hold onto the rod and reach the fruit, but when they partake of the tree they become ashamed because they are being scoffed at so they fall away onto ‘forbidden paths’, some are drawn to the ‘great and spacious building’ and fall into the waters as they feel their way, and of course some hold continually to the iron rod, reach the tree and partake of the fruit and remain there. As visions go, there is plenty of imagery here, and this always captured my imagination hearing this story as I grew up.
Hamilton quotes Elder David Bednar, who emphasised the importance of continually holding fast to the rod of iron, and suggested that this is symbolic of people consistently reading, studying and searching the words of Christ. Hamilton says that for those who are in God’s church (i.e. the LDS church), they have covenanted to keep God’s commandments and repent as needed, since “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) I feel it is a shame that Hamilton is here encouraging the LDS to consistently read Christ’s words, yet they do not take them seriously when they do not concur with LDS teaching. An obvious example would be John 3:16, “whosoever believeth in him (God’s Son) should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Or how about: “And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.” (Luke 7:48-50) Or, “But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:40-43) It is also a shame that Hamilton is using the quote from Romans 3 about falling short of the glory of God in order to keep God’s commandments and repent, when the whole point of what is being discussed in Romans 3 is that we will never satisfy the law and keep all the commandments. We can only be justified by faith. It is worth quoting the next five verses after Romans 3:23, not only to show that the LDS emphasis on works is unbiblical, but also to illustrate just how selective LDS leaders are in their use of Bible verses and how these verses are put into the context of LDS teaching rather than kept in their own context. So, here are those next five verses: “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
Hamilton also appears to be equating ‘continually holding to the rod’ to assiduous attendance of Sunday church meetings. He outlines what the purposes of the three separate parts of LDS Sunday church activities are. These three points do not include worshipping the Lord, learning of Jesus and coming to know Him more fully, or fellowshipping with God’s family.
Hamilton goes on to set himself and his family up as the perfect examples to be emulated: “Our family has committed to attend all of our Sunday meetings… We have learned that we feel good about our decision to attend our Church meetings, especially as we return to our home and continue to observe the Sabbath. We even attend all of our Sunday meetings when we are on vacation or traveling. One of our daughters recently wrote to say that she had attended church in a city where she was travelling and then added, ‘Yes, Dad, I did attend all three of the Sunday meetings.’ We know that she was blessed for this righteous decision.” So why attend your statutory three hours of Sunday church services? So that you can be just as proud as Kevin Hamilton is here. So that you can feel good about yourselves afterwards. So that you can ooze smugness by not even taking a Sunday off when you are away from your home ward, and of course, most importantly, so that you can top up your own personal righteousness account with another blessing. It all goes towards ensuring that you’ve made the grade for the Celestial Kingdom.
A couple of paragraphs on, Hamilton defines ‘holding to the rod’ in many ways. These include: striving to keep all of God’s commandments, having daily personal and family prayer, studying the scriptures daily, showing faith in Jesus, repenting, changing our hearts, being baptised, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and pressing forward, feasting upon the word of Christ until the very end of our lives. Yet since the early days, the LDS church has taught, and sung, that “The iron rod is the word of God” (LDS Hymn no. 274) So to hold to the rod means to hold to God’s word. Hamilton teaches that “We simply hold fast to the word of God by worshipping and attending our Sabbath meetings.” Yet if the LDS church took the word of God (i.e. the Bible) seriously, they would find that what takes place and what is taught in a Mormon church on a Sunday does not chime with it in any meaningful way. Mormons feel that they are holding fast to ‘the iron rod’ or ‘the word of God’, but in fact they are being told to hold on to a habit of unquestioning Sunday church meeting attendance.
Towards the end of Hamilton’s talk, he refers to covenants made by the LDS. He is here referring to temple covenants. These include the covenant of the law of sacrifice, wherein the solemn promise is made to be willing to sacrifice all that one possesses, even one’s own life if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God. (i.e. the LDS church). Hamilton reminds the listeners that the promised blessing for keeping their temple covenants is to receive ‘all that the father hath’. Yet we know that receiving ‘all that the father hath’ according to Galatians 3, Romans 8 and Titus 3 means to be an heir with Christ, and that receiving ‘all that the father hath’ in Mormon teaching is ultimately to become a god (see point 2 under the heading ‘The Blessings of Exaltation’ in Gospel Principles Manual: Chapter 47). Again, Hamilton refers to the fruit that is
mentioned in Lehi’s vision, using the description of it being ‘most precious and most desirable above all other.’ The juxtaposition here of the reminder to the LDS that keeping their covenants can lead to receiving ‘all that the father hath’ and the allusion to partaking of desirable fruit, brings to mind the serpent’s words to Eve in relation to the forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden: “ye shall be as gods.” One cannot help concluding that the carrot being dangled here, is that through doing everything the LDS church tells you to do, you will ultimately be able to attain that which was used to tempt Eve, namely the lie that you can become gods. This is the false gospel of Mormonism, based on the teachings of Joseph Smith, rather than the life, suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus.
Knowing people is a fascinating part of life, seeing the different aspects, personalities, preferences quirks etc of people is always very interesting. It goes without saying that some people we only get to know to a very limited extent and some we really build relationships and maybe build a life together with.
The more important someone is to us the more likely we are going to know them better, that’s again basic stuff, but leads right into looking at Jesus. Those who know Him to any extent know that He is the most significant, life changing person that ever existed.
In the Bible we see that eternal life comes from knowing Jesus.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
This is a massive issue, many people in the world today often think that if they just do their best in life and let the good things they do outweigh the bad then they will be ok. We see Jesus Himself speak to people here that were seemingly doing good things.
Matthew 7:21-23Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
If we do not truly know Jesus even good works that we do are nothing to Christ. Isaiah 64:6 says we are ALL unclean and our good works are like filthy rags to God. Knowing Jesus is what truly saves, not anything that we can do.
So who is this Jesus? This article is going to look at two areas.
1, The person of Jesus.
2, The Offices of Jesus.
So for number 1 We see that Biblically Jesus is completely and utterly God.
Colossians 1:16 says For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
All things created By Him and For Him. We see that the Saviour is not only able to create, but the things that He creates are created for Him. We see this in Isaiah.
Isaiah 43:7Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
We see that this old Testament God that created man for His glory, this Jesus in the New Testament created all things for Himself. If Jesus was not God He would be subject to the wrath of this Old Testament God as we see here:
Isaiah 42:8I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
In Philippians we see the amazing humility that this Jesus displayed in coming to earth and doing all that He did for us.
Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus thought is not robbery to be equal with God. That is very significant. In the New Testament greek we see “Theos” as the word used to mean God, which is mostly by far referring to the Father. We see here then that Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal to the Father. This is because of His absolute glory and majesty before He came to the earth.
Consider this scene in Batman Begins.
Here we see Bruce Wayne trying to experience the Criminal world without ever actually becoming a criminal. He is caught robbing a warehouse but rightly claims he is no criminal because He actually owns the warehouse. He thought it not robbery to take items from it, this is the same with Jesus absolute equality with His Father. However in Mormonism we see a different story.
Also its worth noting that in the LDS Church it is taught that most of the references to God in the Old Testament are the pre human Jesus. It is taught that Jehovah is Jesus and Elohim is God the Father, here is a quote from a past Mormon Apostle James Talmage.
“It is to be remembered that the Personage most generally designated in the Old Testament as God or the Lord, is He who in the mortal state was known as Jesus Christ, and in the antemortal state as Jehovah” (Articles of Faith, 465-466).
However Biblically this seems to not be the case. In the Hebrew when it says Lord it is referring to Jehovah and when it says God it is referring to Elohim, with that in mind consider these verses.
“Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him” (Deut. 4:35).
“That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else” (1 Kings 8:60).
“Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves;” (Psalm 100:3).
“And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God” (Zech. 13:9).
Here is a quote from 10th Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith showing something of the LDS view of the nature of Christ.
“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Sav- ior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33).
In Mormonism Jesus is another one of us. Just elevated initially because He was the firstborn of our heavenly parents. He had to go through the same plan of salvation that we all do, so that then what was lacking in Him could be made complete. This is not the Jesus of the Bible. This is actually not humility.
Ask yourself the question, if Jesus coming to the earth and carrying out the Atonement for us, brought upon Himself an eternity of honour and glory in His exaltation, where was the sacrifice in what He did on the earth? Was it not really an opportunity?
Jesus said unless you believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24) Do you really believe that Jesus is the great I am? The eternal glorious creator of all things who never needed anything, who never had need of anyone to give Him council, who is eternally glorious?
Or is He your elder brother, simply going through the same plan of salvation you are, and may one day be your equal, depending on how you live your life?
Secondly, I want to focus on the Offices of Christ. Actually I am going to look at just one, that is his Priesthood.
In Old Testament times High Priests carried that role one person at a time until death, we see that stated in Hebrews.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Old Testament High Priests daily offered sacrifices to seek to atone for the sins of themselves and Gods people. This was their most significant role. This role is now totally fulfilled and complete in Christ.
Hebrews 7:24-28 But this man, because he continueth ever,hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Jesus, because He will never die has the role of the High Priest forever. The primary role of the High Priest is done and that role is held eternally by Christ. There is no longer the need for human priests to mediate between God and man and here is why:
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Yet in Mormonism we see this:
Doctrine and Covenants 68:19
“But, as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provid- ed he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power, under the hands of the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood”
15th LDS President Gordon B Hinckley
“We have more than 18,000 bishops in the Church. Every one is a man who has been called by the spirit of prophecy and revelation and set apart and ordained by the laying on of hands. Every one of them holds the keys of the presidency of his ward. Each is a high priest, the presiding high priest of his ward. Each carries tremen- dous responsibilities of stewardship. Each stands as a father to his people” (Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Shepherds of Israel,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2003, p. 60).
Biblically we see one high Priest, that person is Jesus, He carries that role forever like no one ever could. In Mormonism there are thousands of high Priests. An easy way to see the difference between a Mormon and a Christian is to ask who their high Priest is. The Mormon points to a man in their ward, the Christian points to Jesus.
In the great commission we see Jesus say this, watch as this is massively significant!
Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto ME in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Jesus said all power is given to ME therefore go! Do you want to know why you NEVER see a Priesthood blessing referenced in the New Testament? Its because its not the power or authority of the priesthood that the Church needs, but rather it is the power and authority of Jesus.
Hebrews 1:3 says Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
All things are upheld by His Word, by His word He calmed a storm (Mark 4:39), raised a dead man (John 11:43) forgave sin (Luke 5:20), healed the sick (Luke 5:24), and called Apostles (John 1:42) this Jesus word alone carried more power than any church governmental authority, He has all power and authority by vitrtue of His nature alone.
If you are in Jesus then all the power and authority you need is given unto you, because He has it, and has said GO. You are commissioned, equipped, and empowered by being in Christ.
Finally and most significantly, Salvation comes from His name and no other place. If you know and trust Christ your eternity is sealed in Him.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Do you know this Jesus? Has He saved you to the uttermost? Is His authority in you? Do you look to Him for all you need or is it found in an organization? The answer will affect your eternity.
It was October 2010 and I was sat in the first session of the Mormon General Conference. The President of the Church Thomas Monson gave the opening talk and announced the locations of where some temples were to be built. The looks of awe and amazement that people in the audience gave each other, and the loud gasps you could hear right across the 21.000 people there really amazed me.
This is an issue of massive significance to Mormons. The temple is the holiest place you can be in on earth, its the place where saving ordnances are carried out for dead people and for yourself, only worthy Mormons who have lived out the Mormon gospel faithfully and fully, and been a member for at least a year can go in. This review will draw from the chapter here quite heavily, but will also be a glimpse of the Mormon temples, and what the Bible says about them as a whole.
Here is a video put together by the Mormon Church, talking about the significance of the temple. This is short and worth a watch just to see this from the Mormon Perspective.
In p.140 of the Lorenzo Snow manual we see this:
In temples we learn of the marvelous blessings God has prepared for the faithful. The prospects that God has opened up to our view are wonderful and grand; the imagination cannot conceive of them. Come into the Temples and we will show you. Many of you, I presume, have been there, and have heard the marvelous things that God has prepared for those that love Him and continue faithful to the end. . . . . . . He has prepared everything for the Latter-day Saints that they could possibly wish or imagine in order to effect their complete happiness throughout the vast eternities.7 [See suggestion 2 on pages 144–45.]
In the Mormon Temple the main functions it carries out are as follows.
Baptisms for the Dead
The Endowment ceremony, both for the living and the dead.
Families being sealed together for eternity
Wedding sealings, both for the living and the dead.
(Much less talked about is the 2nd anointing ceremony. In this ceremony which an Apostle presides over, someone can have their calling and election made sure, I believe this means they are then guaranteed celestial glory, provided they remain faithful. I will not be going further into that here, but you can catch an interview with someone who went through that and has since left the LDS Church here.)
I want to spend some time here looking at the Baptisms for the dead, and the endowment ceremony, looking at whether they are really a part of the Biblical gospel, and necessary in order that we might spend get eternal life. The rest of this post will focus on the Baptism for the dead doctrine and another post will follow soon on the endowment.
The belief in Baptism for the dead in the Mormon Church is based upon their belief that when all people die, they go to the Spirit world, awaiting final judgement. Those that lived the gospel of Christ faithfully will go to paradise. We see this in Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 138:11-12
11 As I apondered over these things which are bwritten, the ceyesof my dunderstanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lorderested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the fdead, both small and great.
12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the ajust, who had been bfaithful in thectestimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
However those that did not live faithfully will go to Spirit Prison, the same D&C chapter refers to those people being preached to by Christ.
7 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
8 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in aprison;
This is the LDS interpretation of what we see in 1 Peter 3:18, they also believe that there will be missionaries who have died faithfully who will go to this prison to preach the gospel to the people there. However ultimately for people to be released from this prison someone must be baptised for them in this life. This is massively significant to the Mormon movement and its members.
Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism said:
“The greatest responsibility in this world that God has placed upon us is to seek after our dead” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 356).
This is why there is so much excitement among Mormons when they hear of new temples being built, as they see more temples as more saving ordnances for the alive but mostly for the dead. We see this in the Lorenzo Snow Chapter we are looking at. (p.143)
We desire anxiously that the brethren and sisters should not neglect this important work. Do you know what will be the main labor during the thousand years of rest [the Millennium]? It will be that which we are trying to urge the Latter-day Saints to perform at the present time. Temples will be built all over this land, and the brethren and sisters will go into them and perhaps work day and night in order to hasten the work and accomplish the labors necessary before the Son of Man can present His kingdom to His Father. This work has got to be accomplished before the Son of Man can come and receive His kingdom to present it to His Father.13 [See suggestion 5 on page 145.]
You can see in the bolded part here that temples must be built and all of the necessary labours must be done before Jesus CAN come back. So the more temples are being built for Mormons this means the more the kingdom is advancing and that means that the end is getting all the more close. This is Mormon kingdom advancement.
I just want to spend some time looking at this issue:
Does Baptism for dead people have any effect on the eternity of dead people?
The Biblical basis that the Mormon Church uses for the Baptism for the dead doctrine is 1 Corinthians 15:29.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
So while I believe that contextually, this verse is by no means teaching that Christians should carry out this act which I will show, this still leaves the issue of what does this mean?
Firstly I would ask you to read the full chapter of 1 Corinthians 15. For the sake of space I am not going to quote it all, but please pick up your Bible now and have it in front of you.
Ok, assuming you have done that lets have a look at the chapter.
We see in v1 that Paul is declaring the gospel which he preached (past tense) unto you, which you have received and stand in. So we see he is speaking to Christians, further supported by verse 2.
v3, we see Paul also received this gospel.
v4 to 11 are talking about Christ and Apostles.
v’s 12-18 are interesting as that says that some among the Christians (it says “you”) were saying there is no resurrection of the dead, he talks about the problem with this view. Such as in v18 those who had died in Christ would be perished, which is not the case.
in v19 we see that If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
So Paul is saying that is there was no resurrection for the dead WE would be most miserable. We know from Philippians 1:21 that Paul was very much looking forward to dying and being with Christ so if there was no resurrection of the dead then this is a big deal.
We see in v20-22 the glorious truth that Christ is risen from the dead, and that while all died because of Adam then all live in Christ. We see in 2 Corinthians 5:17 that those that are in Christ are a new creation. Yet in Romans 3:23 ALL have sinned. So therefore in context we know that all without exception are in Adam, yet it is only those new creations that are in Christ, and therefore those are the ones that live.
v’s23-28 talk about the reign of Christ. Then we get to the verse in question. I will quote the two verses after too.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Paul suddenly asks the question what shall they do which are baptised if the dead are not raised at all, why are they baptised for the dead? Paul has spend the entire chapter addressing the Christians as You and We then all of a sudden it goes from those to they.
The question needs to be asked why the sudden shift? If Baptism for the dead is so important, and the end will not come until the work is complete why is Paul content leaving this work to someone else? Does not Paul endure ALL things for the sake of the elect? (2Timothy 2:10) Why then is he not engaging in this essential work too?
Why does he seem to assume that his readers are not carrying out this work? Why does he not say that if there is no resurrection when you baptise for the dead you are baptising in vain?
This is because he is referring to people that are not reading his letter. People who are not Christians. We see this cemented by v30 that says And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
We know from other parts of the letters to the Corinthian Churches that the Church was undergoing persecution.
1 Corinthians 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
2 Corinthians 4:8-9 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
So Paul is asking in v30, why would we stand in Jeopardy every hour IF THERE IS NO RESURRECTION???
Why are they baptising for the dead? And why are we standing in Jeopardy? If there is no resurrection (which there is), is the cry of Paul here. Ending with his protest bring fueled by the rejoicing of YOU the Christians.
Who then are the they referred to in v29? In honesty I am not sure, Matthew 22:23 refers to the Sadducee’s as not believing in the resurrection, however I am not sure. Despite looking at this text alone we see elsewhere in the Bible that there are no second chances for salvation after death.
Hebrews 9:27 says: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
2 Corinthians 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Everything in the New Testament with regards to salvation is geared towards people responding to Christ here and now.
Romans 10:9-10 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
There are no second chances, today is the day of Salvation. For more on this check out an excellent article on the Got Questions site here.
In another post soon I will be looking at the Endowment Ceremony in the Temple, in the mean time, I welcome your comments.
I thought for this Ensign review I might teach readers how to read the Mormon flagship magazine, the Ensign. Mormons will insist, of course, this is hardly necessary since what you see is what you get. Non-Mormons, without an explanation, will think this makes sense and never realise they are reading something whose true content is communicated subliminally in a cloud of clever words and beguiling artwork.
You can access the latest issue online as well as a PDF version. The PDF version is important as it will allow you to see for yourself the things I am talking about. It also saves me reproducing the pictures here and risking infringing copyright, so you might like to open it now and have it handy to turn to the pages I mention.
The cover of this edition carries the picture of a woman of African descent caressing the cheek of her new-born child. (Such a picture in a Mormon magazine would have been rare as hen’s teeth up until July 1978. Before then Africans were not positively proselyted by the Mormon church and the few black Mormons who persevered were denied all rights beyond basic membership. There is a whole different subtext in this picture to do with projecting an egalitarian and non-racist image but that is not the main issue on this occasion)
The magazine promises as its main theme, “We Follow Jesus Christ,” and you might see the subtle connection between mother and child and that theme. The three articles highlighted under that heading are about Christian discipleship, balancing truth and tolerance, and building a Christ-like life on the foundation of integrity. In relatively modest type and suitably subservient is the title, “Stand by my Servant Joseph,” an account of the ‘stalwart associates’ of Joseph Smith (I don’t recall they were, most of them, especially stalwart)
In any event, as it should be, you might be thinking. I suggest we suspend judgement and take a brief detour through the founding myth of Mormonism and then come back to this magazine with fresh eyes and better informed minds. You will recall that Mormonism purportedly started with the story of a young boy seeking truth, and a vision in what came to be known as “The Sacred Grove” where, “on the morning of a beautiful, clear, day in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty” Joseph Smith went to pray.
Mormon missionaries today begin their story with “The Message of the Restoration…” following carefully lesson 1 on page 31 of their their mission guide, Preach my Gospel, wasting no time bringing people to “The Sacred Grove.” Images of that event have become iconic in Mormon culture and thought, representing for Mormons the epiphany on which Mormonism is founded.
Where Christians have Golgotha and an empty tomb in 1st century Israel, Mormons have a grove of trees and a mysterious light in 19th century upper New York State. When Mormons are asked about their faith this is their starting point. Stop a moment and consider what would be yours if asked about your faith.
Since that mythical meeting in a mystical grove, critics claim, Mormonism has been all about Joseph Smith. “We thank thee, O God, for a prophet…” Mormons sing (LDS Hymns 19). Oh, how lovely was the morning…” (Joseph Smith’s First Prayer, Hymns 26) “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah” (Hymns 27)
“Follow the prophet!” Mormons are urged.
The prominence given to Jesus Christ on the magazine cover is, some might claim, simply designed to divert our attention from this troubling focus, to convince folk that the Mormon Church is a Christian Church, indeed the Christian Church. Mormons, of course, protest that they are Christians, citing various authorities, but what we do can sometimes speak so loud people cannot hear what we say. Now lets go back to the magazine and “hear” what it is saying in what it does.
In this magazine purporting to show a Christian face we turn the cover to find – yes, the sacred grove, or at least something having an uncanny resemblance to same (inside front cover). With a caption that speaks of inspiration and revelation we are pictorially drawn again to that iconic image that anchors all things Mormon to Joseph Smith. Do take a look for yourself in the PDF edition.
That modest piece about Joseph Smith’s “loyal friends” is illustrated by a striking full-page portrait of a young Joseph falling back in the presence of the light in that grove (p.35). Over the page (p.36) is a full-length, half-page portrait of Joseph and Hyrum Smith standing by a river with Hyrum’s arm placed steadfastly around the shoulders of his younger, oracular brother. Over the page again (p.38) we have a full-length, half-page portrait of Joseph Smith in aptly prophetic pose, knowledge and wisdom under his arm, gaze set into the middle distance, looking every inch the prophet of Mormon imagination.
Over the following page (p.40), illustrating an article entitled, “Earth, a Gift From God,” is a photograph of, would you believe it, sunlight shining through the canopy of trees. Seem familiar? Following the country insert an article extolling the virtue of having consistent standards is illustrated by a picture of a door leading into a state of happiness (p.45), a door reached by walking through a parade of trees uncannily reminiscent of a sacred grove.
The Gnostic Jesus
So where is Jesus? Well, there’s a picture of Jesus on page 15, using Jesus’ baptism against a Mormon background teaching salvation through baptism. You can find out in another post here about water baptism He pops up again on pages 27 and 30 to illustrate
“Three Absolute Truths”:
1 A sort of universalism in which we are not created with this world but are literally children of God, of the same species as Jesus, literally brothers and sisters.
2 Mormons exclusively have the truth and must tolerate the rest of “God’s children” who don’t, including “those other Christians”;
3 This creates a conflict between truth, exclusive to Mormonism, and error, believed in some degree by everyone else – including “those other Christians.” (“Understanding These other Christians” is the title of a book by Mormon writer Richard G Grant in which he attempts to explain the Evangelical faith to Mormons)
This is a picture, not of salvation by acknowledging our sin and turning to the right Saviour, a theology of the cross, but of finding the right path by acknowledging our ignorance and embracing the right doctrines; salvation by knowledge (gnosis) and works. Looking at those pictures of Jesus again we see this depicted pictorially.
On page 15 Jesus is submitting to baptism which, to a Mormon, relates directly to Mormon baptism as depicted in the other pictures on the page. This is Jesus being exclusively tied into Mormon ideas, condoning the unbiblical notion that we are saved by correct doctrine (regarding priesthood authority) and submission to correct and authoritative ordinances.
The picture of Jesus on page 27 again emphasises doctrine over deliverance and might be a Mormon priesthood quorum meeting . The picture on page 30 illustrates the correctly baptised Jesus, armed with the correct (Mormon) doctrine, entering the public square with the correct Mormon authority and message. It is worth noting there is no cross in this edition purporting to show that Mormons are followers of Jesus Christ. This is more like a mystery religion with initiation, advancement through levels of gnosis and final enlightenment and godhood. This is a gnostic Jesus.
But, as Michael Horton writes, “There is no path from us to God, but God has blazed his own trail to us.” (The Christian Faith, Zondervan, 2011, p.46)
So is there an editorial team somewhere thinking, “How much Joseph can we get into this month’s Ensign?” Of course not. There is nothing so overtly sinister going on here. It is much more insidious than that. This is not, I suggest, a conscious effort on the part of the publishers to big up Joseph Smith but an unselfconscious outworking of how every Mormon learns to think from the cradle, or from conversion. In Mormon-think the gospel is naturally illustrated by events surrounding the “restoration,” concerning Joseph Smith, reinforcing a message of prophets. In Mormon-think “brother Joseph” is everything and this preoccupation manifests itself in every Mormon testimony, apologetic, lesson and publication. Even when the theme is Jesus the way is Joseph.
Mormons are Christians? Really?
In the country insert for the UK and Ireland (not in the online edition for obvious reasons) there is a heart-warming story of a young man who, after years of hard work and dedication, became an airline pilot. His comment on the experience is revealing:
“I have been the only member of the Church right the way through my flight training, and its been challenging at times. While I have felt alone at times I have never felt rejected for something I believe in. The Church has been an incredible support.”
I began to wonder if there were Christians on the course, or among the training personnel? Would a Christian of any denomination have found a kindred spirit in another Christian of any other denomination and felt less isolated? I am sure they would, but a Mormon would not it seems.
Because of their founding myth Mormons think of the Christian world as sharply divided with Baptist Christians, Methodist Christians, Pentecostal Christians etc. having little or nothing to do with each other. They don’t understand that the common thread that binds all Christians is Jesus regardless, in the main, of disagreement on secondary issues. That a Christian would be glad to find another Christian with whom to fellowship.
That which binds Mormons is Joseph and this it is that makes them stand out and stand apart from “those other Christians,” whatever they may claim about being “Christians too.” It would never occur to a “Mormon Christian,” as they sometimes describe themselves, to find fellowship with any but their own Joseph followers.
You may have realised by now that the Christian message starts with Jesus while the Mormon message begins with Joseph; the defining revelation of the Christian Gospel is an empty Cross and an empty tomb, while the defining revelation of the Mormon Gospel is a strange light in a “sacred grove.” The Christian life is one of service to and relationship with the One who has saved, while the Mormon life is one of initiation, loyalty to Mormonism and good works in order to advance in knowledge and gain access to God.
Paul wrote in his letter to Christians in Rome:
For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘who will go up to heaven’ (to bring Christ down to earth), and don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead’ (to bring Christ back to life again). In fact, it says,
“The message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart.”
And that message is the very message about faith that we preach. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. (Romans 10:5-10, NLT)
Sacraments and ordinances don’t save us, following a man into a “sacred grove” doesn’t save us, “progressing” like a gnostic initiate doesn’t save us and works do not save us. Jesus saves! He saves the broken-hearted, the repentant, the confused, the lost and the poor and needy. We are saved by looking to him, believing (which means trusting) in him and by confessing him. This is not the Jesus Christ Mormons follow, he will not be found in this Ensign magazine.
I hope now you are better equipped to “read” future editions of the Ensign magazine of the Mormon Church, to better understand the message all Mormon literature and conversation brings and to share more confidently the Jesus of the Bible, the Jesus who saves to the uttermost by his blood shed on the cross at Calvary.
Mike Thomas was a Mormon for 14 years, became a Christian in 1986 and for many years worked with Reachout Trust speaking and writing about Mormonism. He still researches Mormonism and occasionally posts his thoughts on Mormon issuesThe Mormon Chapbook
In the Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 25:26 says: And we atalk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we bprophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our cchildren may know to what source they may look for a dremission of their sins.
On Mormonism 101 a recent section on the Mormon Newsroom website stating Mormons beliefs, it says this about Jesus.
1.Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of our loving Heavenly Father
Latter-day Saints believe God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to save all mankind from their sins (see John 3:16). God is a loving Heavenly Father who knows His children individually, hears and answers their prayers, and feels compassion toward them. Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, are two separate beings but along with the Holy Ghost (Spirit) are one in will, purpose and love.
Latter-day Saints worship Jesus Christ as their Savior and Redeemer. He is central to the lives of Church members. They accept His grace and mercy; they seek to follow His example by being baptized (see Matthew 3:13-17), praying in His holy name (see Matthew 6:9-13), partaking of the sacrament (communion) (see Luke 22:19-20), doing good to others (see Acts 10:38) and bearing witness of Him through both word and deed (see James 2:26).
Yet despite what these sources say, Christians worldwide see the Jesus that Mormons believe in as a different Jesus to the bible. What I want to do in this article is look at the background to the LDS view on Jesus compared to the Biblical view, focusing particularly on these 3 areas.
The Nature of Christ.
The Glory of Christ.
The Sufficiency of Christ.
The Nature of Christ
Jesus is as evangelicals believe a part of the Trinity, fully God yet one of the 3 persons that make up the God of the bible. I will spend some time here looking at the biblical evidence for Jesus being God, also looking at His pre earth nature, and the LDS view of His nature compared with biblical statements on this.
So Philippians 2:5-11 says:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
So we see Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, Jesus existed in the form of God and then emptied Himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being found in the likeness of men.
Jesus was equal to the Father, as well as this we see in Colossians 1:16 that all things were made by Him (which is also said in John 1:3, saying all things that were made, were made by Him) and for Him. What does that for mean?
We see throughout the bible that God has created humanity for His glory, we exist for His enjoyment over ours.
Isaiah 43:7 says
Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
So if we are made for Gods glory, and we are made by and for Christ, then we are made for Christs glory if He is on an equal level with the Father meaning He is God.
Now I will get on more to the glory of Christ in the next section however in seeing something of the significance of the glory of Christ we get to the heart of who Christ is by nature as in the Old Testament God says this:
Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
God will not give His glory to another, hold that thought for later.
In the LDS view we see a difference from the start, my understanding of this view is that Christ was the first to be born of our heavenly parents in the pre-existence in heaven. Christ being the first to be born was given a God like status as a result and He is the example of what we as the spirit children born after Christ can recieve ourselves in terms of glory and exaltation. We will not necessarily be saviours, though there is some belief amongst some LDS that God the Father was a saviour on another planet and that Christ is doing the same on His road to exaltation and that maybe we will do the same later.
However staying on point the general LDS view is that Christ had to come to earth to live out His plan of salvation to receive His full exaltation to be a god, as well as being our saviour in the process.
BYU Professor Robert Millet said this: (BYU is a Mormon Church owned college in Provo Utah)
“Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thus the recipient of the birthright of the royal family. As such, and in that premortal realm, he was the Elder Brother of all of the spirit sons and daughters of the Father” (A different Jesus? The Christ of the Latter Day saints, p.20)
Also in an LDS manual:
“Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven” (Gospel Principles 1997, p.11).
So according to this view we all have the same background and start in existence as Christ, we existed eternally as intelligences and later gained our Spirit bodies in heaven, however He was simply first, and was chosen to be the Savior (Abraham 3:27-28, LDS Scripture)
This massively goes against the Biblical view of where Christ came from and where we came from, here’s why:
John 6:46 says Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
No one has seen the Father except Him who is of God, what does that mean He is of God?
Genesis 3:19 says In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
This verse says for dust we are, and dust we will return, this on a very natural level talks about our origin, being of the earth, meaning we are created and came into being on the earth. However to take away any more doubt here is what Jesus says.
John 8:23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Jesus Himself says He is from above, we are from below, we are of the world He is not of this world, why is this? Because we see in John 6:46 He is of God, we see in Philippians 2 that He came directly from the Father whom He is the only man to have seen, and cast aside His exalted position to lower Himself to take the form of us, however we are of the world, we have not seen the Father, we come from the Earth.
Jesus is utterly unique in His nature and is the only one who can claim to have come from and seen the Father, as He is from everlasting. (Micah 5:2) We are finite contingent beings, dependent on God for our existence and are by no means of the same nature of Jesus only born of our Spirit parents a little later.
The Glory of Christ.
This is another area where we dramatically see differences with the biblical and LDS view.
According to the LDS view Jesus was exalted as a result of His work on the earth and gained much more glory and status as a god as a result of what He did in His time on the earth.
10th LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said this:
“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33)
Jesus gained a fulness after His resurrection, this leads to a justifiable question, in that did Jesus actually sacrifice anything by coming to the earth then? Was it humility? This discussion in Shawn Mccraney’s book “I was a born again Mormon” illustrates this.
“Several years ago, a close friend who was LDS called me at my home to ask a question.
“All right,” he said rather abruptly, “Ive been thinking about this for a while, and I want to hear your views. What was the sacrifice of Jesus?”
“Other than his life?” I asked somewhat sarcastically.
“What was the sacrifice?” he repeated. “Describe it to me.”
This friend was not aware of my spiritual rebirth and was still under the impression that I subscribed to the LDS idea of Jesus. He had agreed, however, in a previous conversation that the true sacrifice must entail giving up something of greater value for something lesser, otherwise the exchange would simply be an opportunity.
“Well,” I replied, “I suppose in the LDS context of Jesus, there was none.”
“Exactly!” he excitedly replied. “Jesus came to earth and got a body just like us, right?”
“Right”
“And getting a body is a blessing, right?”
“According to the plan “yes.”
“So His coming to the earth waesn’t a sacrifice,” he concluded.
“And Jesus lived like all men live for most of His life, except He was able to avoid sin completely, right? Now that isn’t a sacrifice because we believe sin is never good, so by living without it, He only benefited himself, right?”
“Go on,” I said, excited to hear where this was going to end up.
“Then He begins his mission, right? Yes, He was without wealth, possessions, or a home; but this was only for a few years right?”
“Okay,” I replied with a laugh. “So the sacrifice was in His suffering and death for all humankind?”
“How can that be?” he snapped. “I agree that He suffered, but most of His mission was filled with people falling all over themselves to touch Him, hanging out with His friends and doing miracles. It was only at the end that He really endured the big-time pain.”
“But imagine the pain,” I interjected.
“I’m not claiming He didn’t suffer. He did. More than we will ever know and maybe in some dimension that we can’t explain. And I’m not saying He didn’t experience undeserved pain to boot. But tell me this, who wouldn’t go through all that suffering for a few days if they knew they would have all the glory, power, riches, and majesty forever and ever once the misery was over?”
And here we start to see the infinitely significant difference between the LDS view of Jesus and the biblical one. Look again at this passage in Philippians 2.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I am going to use this section as my argument for the biblical view, I will go through the underlined parts and explain what I am trying to say, referencing elsewhere as needed.
1, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
Hold that thought on the form of God for the next point. In the second half of this we see that He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Imagine if I took some money from your pocket would that be robbery? Of course it would as it was not mine, but what if I took something that was mine. See this scene from one of the best movies ever.
We see here Bruce Wayne getting caught in a supposed robbery, He says I am not a thief, the Policeman says tell that to the owner, who is the owner…..Its Bruce Wayne, did he commit robbery? No as it was His to take. Equality with God was in Jesus posession, He had to cast it aside to come to earth, this was not the start of a promotion process for Him.
2, Took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Here is where we see another massive contrast with the LDS view of God the Father. According to the LDS view the Father has a body of flesh and bones as a result of His time as a man, however here we see a distinction between the form of God and the form of man.
Genesis 1:26-27 is one of they key places LDS theology draws its support for this view.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The LDS view is that if we are in Gods image then God must have a body of flesh and bones as we do. This makes sense on the surface but if you read straight after the image mention you see its according to His likeness. We are in His image according to His likeness. A key aspect of Gods character is rulership over all things. We see straight after we are told we are in His image according to likeness that we will rule over the animals of the earth.
We see this turned around later in Genesis 5:3
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
In the case of Adam having a son we see he is in his likeness after his image, the New American Standard Bible puts it like this “his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.”
We see a reversal of how God made us, in His likeness according to His image, as they were of the same image.
Going back to Philippians 2 we see a clear distinction between the form of God and the form of man, here is a logical syllogism for this.
Jesus before coming to earth existed in the form of God.
When coming to earth He took the form of a bondservant – Man .
Therefore Gods form is different to that of man’s.
3, He humbled Himself.
This has kind of been covered above now so I will quickly say that the Biblical Jesus humbled Himself casting aside His equality with God to take a lesser form to go through a totally undeserved punishment. The LDS Jesus had a god like status but knew that getting a body and living out His plan of salvation with the suffering and all else involved would lead to more glory and power and spiritual riches than He ever had before, this was a move that worked for His self interest as much as anything else.
4, Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
And finally here is what is likely the LDS response would be to what I am saying, well Bobby here it is Jesus was highly exalted and given the name above every name, it goes on to say that every knee would bow before Him, so therefore Christ must be more glorious now.
This I would say is partly right, however there is a difference between Jesus receiving more glory and being more equal with God, and being more like God in His nature.
Hebrews 12:2 says
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
The God of the bible is a God that always seeks first His own glory in all acts He carries out, this glory is the primary and most satisfying source of joy to God and He does everything that He does in order that it might please Him.
Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
So God does what He does in us according to His good pleasure.
Isaiah 48:9-11 is where God gives the reason why He will not cut His constantly sinning people off.
9 For my name’s sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. 10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. 11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
So where am I going with this? Jesus did what He did for the joy set before Him, what is that joy? It was the glory He would receive for Jesus is God in nature and equality so like the God of the Old Testament He acts for His glory. So therefore the Father happily gives Him this honour by giving Him the name above ALL names.
For us the name of Jesus is higher than all names, because it is only in the name of Jesus we can be saved (Acts 4:12) , and in honouring Jesus we are bringing glory to the Father, this is the Trinity fully at work. God the Spirit drawing people to Christ, the Father lifting up the Son and glorifying Him, to the glory of the Father.
So when Jesus is exalted and given this name above every name He is no more glorious in nature than before but totally glorified in His position before man as being the source of our salvation. So the joy that is set before Him is not His exaltation in nature but glory before man, that we might live in and enjoy this glory forever.
The Sufficiency of Christ.
So Jesus is totally God by nature and glory, so my final point bringing it back to us is that Christ is all we need eternally. As Gods joy is found in His glory so our joy eternally and in this life can be found in its fullness in His glory.
1 Peter 4:13 says
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
When His glory is revealed we shall be made glad with exceeding joy, this is our eternal occupation coming to light here, Jesus in John 17:24 says
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
As far as I am aware the Mormon take on verses like this and others that talk of us sharing in His glory to mean that we will receive an equivalent glory of our own, and this is what sharing in Christ’s glory means.
However look at this prayer, what is Christ’s hope here, that we get to enjoy our own kingdom as a result of our successful progression and exaltation, or that we are to enjoy His glory and sharing in His glory means actually we get to be partakers in His glory in the sense of we will be looking at and glorifying Him, and the sharing is that we actually get to be with Him forever. Jesus desire was that we might see His glory, that He had before He came to the earth, this also sounds like we had not seen this glory before. Which would further support the view that we did not have a pre-existence in heaven as Mormonism teaches.
Moving on Revelation 7:9 says.
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
This is the desire of God for His people, that we be with Him forever. In Philippians 1:21 Paul shares His desire to depart from this life and be with Christ as that is far better than living. A Mormons heart cry would be to stay longer and keep demonstrating by obeying the commandments that they might be worthy of receiving their exaltation, Paul just wanted to die and be with Christ , 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says this:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We will EVER be with the Lord, because He is sufficient for our eternity, nowhere do we see in the bible that we are to gain our own glory and exaltation and enjoy it with our family forever with Christ being the example of all we can achieve, there is in fact quite the opposite.
On a discussion online on facebook I saw these comments by an Ex-Mormon.
As a young man growing up in the church it was really hard for me at first to understand and except the role of Jesus. There was God the father and then there was Jesus my older Brother, who was also God some how because he was perfect.
Jesus got to play the part of God the Father in most of the stories in the scriptures, except when Jesus was actually here on Earth, then I guess the real God the Father had to play that part himself while Jesus was here on the Earth pretending to be one of us mortals.
I was a middle child groaning up. I had an older brother who seamed nearly perfect at times. He got strait As in school, excellent musician, great artist, never got in trouble, told funny jokes and seamed to excel at anything he tried. He seamed was much better that me at most things. He was highly favored by my parents and got many privileges. I loved and admired my older brother and was somewhat jealous of him.
Why would my older brother, Jesus would want me to worship him, kneel down before him, bath his feet with my tears and kiss his them. Please, no brother would want that. He already gets to be God with out having to come down to Earth to be tested first, like the rest of us do, now I have to worship him too and ask him to forgive my sins because I’m not “perfect” like he is. I’ll admit I had a few jealous issues with Jesus too, like I did with my other older brother.
Is Jesus our elder brother just like us but further on? Or is He God in the fullest and most glorious sense possible, with all we need to be saved and satisfied forever?
The Joy set before Christ was the glory that he held before with the Father, (John 17:5) when He was already equal with the Father (Philippians 2:5-11)being revealed to His people (John 17:24) that we might enjoy it forever (1 Thessalonians 4:17), don’t miss out on this by seeing Christ as merely another man with an exalted status. He the way the truth and the life (John 14:6) not our brother.
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